4 ms·

This is going to be a fascinating experiment to watch. I wouldn't wish to be an Argentinian now, because even if turns out to be amazing this is going to leave

by mrtksn 3y ago

This is going to be a fascinating experiment to watch. I wouldn't wish to be an Argentinian now, because even if turns out to be amazing this is going to leave a lot of people out. Anyone who had it good due to idealogical reasons will see drastic reduction in life quality and prospects. I have been through two big transformations(communism->capitalism in the 90s, secular totalitarianism->islamist totalitarianism in the 2000s), I have no doubt that many people will not be able to function in the new system. The young may see better outcomes if the new governance succeedes overall. Good luck. Never been to Argentina, but I always heard that they are poor but the life is good for all non-monetary stuff that matters. I hope they don't loose that.

selimthegrim 3y ago
Which unfortunate country experienced both of those transformations? Afghanistan? South Yemen?
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Not the same country, but Bulgaria in the 90s and Turkey in the 2000s. I suspect that my parents are crisis chasers. :) It's fun to notice similarities from the past. Did you know that when your economy collapses, the quality of ketchup nosedives and you end up with ketchup having strange color and wrong texture? But there are of course so many differences too, the first 10 years of Turkey's transformation were mostly for the better. The later 10 so far are 90's Bulgaria level.
  - mariojv 3y ago
    That's an interesting fact about the ketchup. What other everyday similarities like that did you notice?
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      Public buses begin to break down, you start to see some clunkers brought back to service. Shopping malls get less maintenance, supermarkets start turning off the air conditioning. You start seeing some new products with clear packaging, almost as if they were packaged in a small room with no access to industrial packaging. Generally that kind of stuff, not very surprising. The ketchup was surprising, wasn’t expecting to see an item from my childhood. Turkey has some strong advantages over Bulgaria(there’s no change in the how economy works, it was just mismanaged), so it’s not that bad in the terms of impact on daily life but it’s still interesting to recognize patterns. The most unfortunate one is the rise of organized crime. Bulgaria was a center of international crime rings throughout the 90’s. Turkey is currently in the same spot. There were many murders of mob bosses, just like in 90’s Bulgaria the organized crime leaders kill each other. The impact of the organized crimes on daily life is that some sectors are taken over by gangs and some people who used to be nobodies become very rich and they show it. In response to that, the youngsters lose fate in education and they try to pursue similar path to become rich. In the recent few months the new interior minister is conducting police raids on gangs, so maybe things can change.
- umeshunni 3y ago
  I think he's talking about two different countries he's lived in. My guess is an Eastern European country in the 90s and Turkey in the 2000s.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Good guess!
porsager 3y ago
Haven't seen any communist places go to an anarcho capitalist system, so your comparisons don't say much. The mere fact that Milei won makes me want to find out if I can move to Argentina!
- mrtksn 3y ago
  It's not really about what's the new system. It's more about the change itself. Governments usually have priorities and policies that artificially make something valuable - for example rocket scientists. That's why with the collapse of USSR suddenly the very well educated engineers and scientists had to become taxi drivers and this caused huge social issues. It was so widespread that it become a stereotype in the west. Of course it's not just the rocket scientists but pretty much anyone employed or their sector protected by the government. Because those people don't know how to operate in the new system, they will fail miserably. Another example could be An archeologist who was able to climb their career through their academic success will finding out that archaeology doesn't have much market value and their lives will be ruined. For decades no one smart will want to do this and they will lose a lot of cultural and historical heritage will be eroded by corrupt people who find a market value in it but have no knowledge in the matter or ethics. It's a stereotype for Eastern European women becoming prostitutes in the West. Apparently Javier Milei promised to legalise selling organs, so it is possible that the Argentinian stereotype be people with missing organs. This happens because sometimes people are desperate and sometimes because they lose fate in their future and want the quick buck. System changes are extremely stressful and can create huge social issues that can last for generations.
  - porsager 3y ago
    I think the change is very much reflected from the system being changed to. Javier Milei has not been shy to say that he intends to slash millions of government jobs, but with the important note, that people will move freely before then because of better offers from the private sector. Now you can't say that about the other revolutions we've seen, because that was just a change of hands on power, not a dissolution of it. Even so, I'm ecstatic that Argentina might show this is possible. Hopefully as a great inspiration to others! There will be many fighting against it, but I'm an optimist, and I'm certian people exposed to real freedom can and will adapt.

by mrtksn 3y ago

selimthegrim 3y ago

Which unfortunate country experienced both of those transformations? Afghanistan? South Yemen?

mrtksn 3y ago
Not the same country, but Bulgaria in the 90s and Turkey in the 2000s. I suspect that my parents are crisis chasers. :) It's fun to notice similarities from the past. Did you know that when your economy collapses, the quality of ketchup nosedives and you end up with ketchup having strange color and wrong texture? But there are of course so many differences too, the first 10 years of Turkey's transformation were mostly for the better. The later 10 so far are 90's Bulgaria level.
- mariojv 3y ago
  That's an interesting fact about the ketchup. What other everyday similarities like that did you notice?
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Public buses begin to break down, you start to see some clunkers brought back to service. Shopping malls get less maintenance, supermarkets start turning off the air conditioning. You start seeing some new products with clear packaging, almost as if they were packaged in a small room with no access to industrial packaging. Generally that kind of stuff, not very surprising. The ketchup was surprising, wasn’t expecting to see an item from my childhood. Turkey has some strong advantages over Bulgaria(there’s no change in the how economy works, it was just mismanaged), so it’s not that bad in the terms of impact on daily life but it’s still interesting to recognize patterns. The most unfortunate one is the rise of organized crime. Bulgaria was a center of international crime rings throughout the 90’s. Turkey is currently in the same spot. There were many murders of mob bosses, just like in 90’s Bulgaria the organized crime leaders kill each other. The impact of the organized crimes on daily life is that some sectors are taken over by gangs and some people who used to be nobodies become very rich and they show it. In response to that, the youngsters lose fate in education and they try to pursue similar path to become rich. In the recent few months the new interior minister is conducting police raids on gangs, so maybe things can change.
umeshunni 3y ago
I think he's talking about two different countries he's lived in. My guess is an Eastern European country in the 90s and Turkey in the 2000s.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Good guess!

porsager 3y ago

Haven't seen any communist places go to an anarcho capitalist system, so your comparisons don't say much. The mere fact that Milei won makes me want to find out if I can move to Argentina!

mrtksn 3y ago
It's not really about what's the new system. It's more about the change itself. Governments usually have priorities and policies that artificially make something valuable - for example rocket scientists. That's why with the collapse of USSR suddenly the very well educated engineers and scientists had to become taxi drivers and this caused huge social issues. It was so widespread that it become a stereotype in the west. Of course it's not just the rocket scientists but pretty much anyone employed or their sector protected by the government. Because those people don't know how to operate in the new system, they will fail miserably. Another example could be An archeologist who was able to climb their career through their academic success will finding out that archaeology doesn't have much market value and their lives will be ruined. For decades no one smart will want to do this and they will lose a lot of cultural and historical heritage will be eroded by corrupt people who find a market value in it but have no knowledge in the matter or ethics. It's a stereotype for Eastern European women becoming prostitutes in the West. Apparently Javier Milei promised to legalise selling organs, so it is possible that the Argentinian stereotype be people with missing organs. This happens because sometimes people are desperate and sometimes because they lose fate in their future and want the quick buck. System changes are extremely stressful and can create huge social issues that can last for generations.
- porsager 3y ago
  I think the change is very much reflected from the system being changed to. Javier Milei has not been shy to say that he intends to slash millions of government jobs, but with the important note, that people will move freely before then because of better offers from the private sector. Now you can't say that about the other revolutions we've seen, because that was just a change of hands on power, not a dissolution of it. Even so, I'm ecstatic that Argentina might show this is possible. Hopefully as a great inspiration to others! There will be many fighting against it, but I'm an optimist, and I'm certian people exposed to real freedom can and will adapt.