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> The people who flamed Python for these breaking changes were either extreme outliers or the sort of people who would be happy with the language never making b

> The people who flamed Python for these breaking changes were either extreme outliers or the sort of people who would be happy with the language never making breaking changes, ever, no matter how bad of mistakes in design were discovered. Count me in the "don't make breaking changes" camp. You can spit out warnings to prevent developers from using certain language features in new code, but changes which outright break old code should be extremely rare. This is how Javascript works (the language, not the ecosystem around it), and it means I can update my web browser and continue visiting old websites. I don't think most languages should go as far as Javascript. However, the case for a breaking change should be a heck of a lot stronger than "we think all timestamps should have timezones now." That's a fine opinion to have, but it doesn't mean you should go break stuff.

derefr 3y ago
> However, the case for a breaking change should be a heck of a lot stronger than "we think all timestamps should have timezones". How about if you rephrase the case as "we've sampled codebases that use naive timestamps, and at least 50% of them had critical bugs related to mistaken assumptions made about timezones by functions used to produce vs consume those timestamps. Your code is already broken. This update just makes the compiler force you to rewrite your code in a way that makes the errors obvious and/or into type errors — and, therefore, which forces you to fix those bugs."
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  Presumably this code works for me if I'm using it. In most cases, an imperfect program I can run is better than one I can't run. Yes there are exceptions. In the ideal case, the author updates their code so it keeps working. But what if I'm not the author and know nothing about the codebase? Is forcing me to make a naïve change to get things working again more likely to remove bugs or add them? The compiler can warn me that I probably have a bug and should change my code. But it shouldn't hold the program hostage until I comply. This isn't a blanket statement in favor of permissive compilers. It's fine for the compiler to force good practices the first time. I just have a problem with the compiler going back and changing its mind later.
  - derefr 3y ago
    > Presumably this code works for me if I'm using it. Sure, it all seems to work for now... and then a customer signs up from Tuvalu, and performs a billable action at 11:59PM on the last day of the month, and your whole billing system falls over because they now have a split invoice generated for next month while it's still this month. > But what if I'm not the author, or even a Python programmer? Is attempting to make a naïve change, in a code base I don't understand, likely to add or remove bugs? Anyone other than the developer of the code, shouldn't be attempting to re-pin the runtime the code depends on to one with a different major ABI version. The problem, of course, is that most programming languages don't have a concept of "pinning the allowed runtime version like any other dependency"; or of the runtime exposing an ABI version that increases for every breaking change. (This second could and should just be the SemVer major-version of the runtime; but for some reason projects aren't fans of bumping their major versions for every little breaking change. Personally I think we should "let marketing win", and just allow projects to expose an ABI version independently.)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
      > Sure, it all seems to work for now... and then a customer signs up from Tuvalu, and performs a billable action at 11:59PM on the last day of the month, and your whole billing system falls over because they now have a split invoice generated for next month while it's still this month. Yeah, so the compiler should issue a warning and the user can decide how to proceed. If the user ignores the warning for code that is part of their company's billing system, that's on them. Computers should provide information, but ultimately leave the humans in charge. > The problem, of course, is that most programming languages don't have a concept of "pinning the allowed runtime version like any other dependency"; or of the runtime exposing an ABI version that increases for every breaking change. That's an equally fine way to handle things IMO, but the language would need to support each runtime version more-or-less indefinitely. It also still doesn't solve your problem with the customer in Tuvalu (which I think is fine, just pointing it out).
ledauphin 3y ago
I don't know if I agree or disagree with your general thesis, but it has to be pointed out that the JavaScript ecosystem is even more complex than Python -- despite the fact that it doesn't have to deal with a C ABI -- and I think this is in fact largely because the language has resisted change so much that everything has just moved beyond the language itself to some form of transpilation. The world changes. Software development changes. The best way to guarantee that your entire codebase will become an obsolete monolith that eventually needs to get replaced is to make sure that you choose an ecosystem that isn't growing and changing too. Yes, there are COBOL and Fortran and whatever else programs still running out there. But software is not mostly a "one and done" thing, and unless you're confident you're writing something that's "one and done", then these comparisons are truly irrelevant.
- josephg 3y ago
  > I think this is in fact largely because the language has resisted change so much that everything has just moved beyond the language itself to some form of transpilation Resisted change? JavaScript has changed massively in the last 12 years I’ve been using it. Promises, generator functions, es modules, webassembly, const/let, arrow functions, destructing, classes, iterators, you name it. The fact that JavaScript is also a compilation target isn't because JavaScript doesn’t change much. It’s because the web is so important, and people wanted to use new JavaScript features before they became widely available in browsers.
  - eternityforest 3y ago
    They resist expansion pretty strongly even if they love change. Like, remember when Google wanted to put Dart in the browser natively? Nobody liked it, and now we're stuck with build steps for quite a while until JS finally adds typing, which might never happen, especially because insane people seem to think canvas+WASM is a good idea for anything but the most specialized uses...
    - josephg 3y ago
      The choice not to add Dart into Firefox and safari was made by the browser vendors. It had nothing to do with the JavaScript standards committee. But to your point I do think it would be great if typescript got first class support by V8 & friends. Type information could dramatically improve JavaScript execution speed. Meticulously deleting all the types before passing code to V8 seems like a very silly choice. I’ve been working in rust the last few years. I wish rust were as open to change as JavaScript is! Generators (aka coroutines) have been sitting just out of reach in nightly the entire time I’ve used the language.
devjab 3y ago
Did they break stuff? One of the differences is that Python is versioned, so you should be capable of running your current version without issues and then update when you’re ready. While JavaScript itself is backwards compatible, in a few cases beyond good reason, it’s not really backwards compatible for most of its modern use cases. Node isn’t backwards compatible and neither is TypeScript, and neither are many frameworks as you point out. I do agree that making breaking changes shouldn’t become a thing, but at some points you also have to move things forward. That being said, I do think this particular case is a shift in philosophy more so than a step forward, since this is a far more opinionated change than what may have been the case previously in Python.
- Kwpolska 3y ago
  You may not always be in control of the Python version, for example if you depend on the Python provided by your OS. You may also want to use a newer Python version for its features, support (bugfixes) and libraries, so you'll need to rewrite things. Java also has versions, but they generally don't remove things. You can keep your ugly code and use the latest version of the language.
- kobalsky 3y ago
  > Did they break stuff? One of the differences is that Python is versioned, so you should be capable of running your current version without issues and then update when you’re ready. the problem is that the amount of asinine changes and unnecessary shuffling of standard libraries is so consistent that a good number of libraries have a grid of compatibility with different Python versions. So version 1.1.0 is compatibe python 3.8, 3.9 and 3.10 and version 1.2.0 is compatible with python => 3.11 (until the next breaking change is introduced), you have to pick and choose depending on which python version you are using, and sometimes you have impossible combinations and pip enters an almost never ending loop trying to find combinations of libraries that work with each other. I've been developing, packaging and creating our own deployment tooling since python 2.2 and I cannot believe how Python devs are still shuffling stuff around instead of working on fixing package management.
kerkeslager 3y ago
> Count me in the "don't make breaking changes" camp. You can spit out warnings to prevent developers from using certain language features in new code, but changes which outright break old code should be extremely rare. "Extremely rare" != "never". > This is how Javascript works (the language, not the ecosystem around it), and it means I can update my web browser and continue visiting old websites. ...and there are reasons for this which don't apply to Python. A typical JavaScript deployment needs to run on millions of machines which the developer doesn't control, and coordinating an update of a JavaScript version to all the machines it needs to run on isn't feasible. Python is usually not run under these constraints: in the typical case, Python runs on servers which the person running it on controls. JavaScript pays an extremely high cost for this, continuing to support decades-old horrible misfeatures such as nonsensical typecasts, returning undefined from nonexistent members, and a variety of incompatible ways to make asynchronous calls. You shouldn't do this unless you have a very strong reason to do so, and these misfeatures is one of the main reasons you shouldn't use JavaScript unless you have a strong reason to do so.

derefr 3y ago

> However, the case for a breaking change should be a heck of a lot stronger than "we think all timestamps should have timezones". How about if you rephrase the case as "we've sampled codebases that use naive timestamps, and at least 50% of them had critical bugs related to mistaken assumptions made about timezones by functions used to produce vs consume those timestamps. Your code is already broken. This update just makes the compiler force you to rewrite your code in a way that makes the errors obvious and/or into type errors — and, therefore, which forces you to fix those bugs."

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
Presumably this code works for me if I'm using it. In most cases, an imperfect program I can run is better than one I can't run. Yes there are exceptions. In the ideal case, the author updates their code so it keeps working. But what if I'm not the author and know nothing about the codebase? Is forcing me to make a naïve change to get things working again more likely to remove bugs or add them? The compiler can warn me that I probably have a bug and should change my code. But it shouldn't hold the program hostage until I comply. This isn't a blanket statement in favor of permissive compilers. It's fine for the compiler to force good practices the first time. I just have a problem with the compiler going back and changing its mind later.
- derefr 3y ago
  > Presumably this code works for me if I'm using it. Sure, it all seems to work for now... and then a customer signs up from Tuvalu, and performs a billable action at 11:59PM on the last day of the month, and your whole billing system falls over because they now have a split invoice generated for next month while it's still this month. > But what if I'm not the author, or even a Python programmer? Is attempting to make a naïve change, in a code base I don't understand, likely to add or remove bugs? Anyone other than the developer of the code, shouldn't be attempting to re-pin the runtime the code depends on to one with a different major ABI version. The problem, of course, is that most programming languages don't have a concept of "pinning the allowed runtime version like any other dependency"; or of the runtime exposing an ABI version that increases for every breaking change. (This second could and should just be the SemVer major-version of the runtime; but for some reason projects aren't fans of bumping their major versions for every little breaking change. Personally I think we should "let marketing win", and just allow projects to expose an ABI version independently.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    > Sure, it all seems to work for now... and then a customer signs up from Tuvalu, and performs a billable action at 11:59PM on the last day of the month, and your whole billing system falls over because they now have a split invoice generated for next month while it's still this month. Yeah, so the compiler should issue a warning and the user can decide how to proceed. If the user ignores the warning for code that is part of their company's billing system, that's on them. Computers should provide information, but ultimately leave the humans in charge. > The problem, of course, is that most programming languages don't have a concept of "pinning the allowed runtime version like any other dependency"; or of the runtime exposing an ABI version that increases for every breaking change. That's an equally fine way to handle things IMO, but the language would need to support each runtime version more-or-less indefinitely. It also still doesn't solve your problem with the customer in Tuvalu (which I think is fine, just pointing it out).

ledauphin 3y ago

I don't know if I agree or disagree with your general thesis, but it has to be pointed out that the JavaScript ecosystem is even more complex than Python -- despite the fact that it doesn't have to deal with a C ABI -- and I think this is in fact largely because the language has resisted change so much that everything has just moved beyond the language itself to some form of transpilation. The world changes. Software development changes. The best way to guarantee that your entire codebase will become an obsolete monolith that eventually needs to get replaced is to make sure that you choose an ecosystem that isn't growing and changing too. Yes, there are COBOL and Fortran and whatever else programs still running out there. But software is not mostly a "one and done" thing, and unless you're confident you're writing something that's "one and done", then these comparisons are truly irrelevant.

josephg 3y ago
> I think this is in fact largely because the language has resisted change so much that everything has just moved beyond the language itself to some form of transpilation Resisted change? JavaScript has changed massively in the last 12 years I’ve been using it. Promises, generator functions, es modules, webassembly, const/let, arrow functions, destructing, classes, iterators, you name it. The fact that JavaScript is also a compilation target isn't because JavaScript doesn’t change much. It’s because the web is so important, and people wanted to use new JavaScript features before they became widely available in browsers.
- eternityforest 3y ago
  They resist expansion pretty strongly even if they love change. Like, remember when Google wanted to put Dart in the browser natively? Nobody liked it, and now we're stuck with build steps for quite a while until JS finally adds typing, which might never happen, especially because insane people seem to think canvas+WASM is a good idea for anything but the most specialized uses...
  - josephg 3y ago
    The choice not to add Dart into Firefox and safari was made by the browser vendors. It had nothing to do with the JavaScript standards committee. But to your point I do think it would be great if typescript got first class support by V8 & friends. Type information could dramatically improve JavaScript execution speed. Meticulously deleting all the types before passing code to V8 seems like a very silly choice. I’ve been working in rust the last few years. I wish rust were as open to change as JavaScript is! Generators (aka coroutines) have been sitting just out of reach in nightly the entire time I’ve used the language.

devjab 3y ago

Did they break stuff? One of the differences is that Python is versioned, so you should be capable of running your current version without issues and then update when you’re ready. While JavaScript itself is backwards compatible, in a few cases beyond good reason, it’s not really backwards compatible for most of its modern use cases. Node isn’t backwards compatible and neither is TypeScript, and neither are many frameworks as you point out. I do agree that making breaking changes shouldn’t become a thing, but at some points you also have to move things forward. That being said, I do think this particular case is a shift in philosophy more so than a step forward, since this is a far more opinionated change than what may have been the case previously in Python.

Kwpolska 3y ago
You may not always be in control of the Python version, for example if you depend on the Python provided by your OS. You may also want to use a newer Python version for its features, support (bugfixes) and libraries, so you'll need to rewrite things. Java also has versions, but they generally don't remove things. You can keep your ugly code and use the latest version of the language.
kobalsky 3y ago
> Did they break stuff? One of the differences is that Python is versioned, so you should be capable of running your current version without issues and then update when you’re ready. the problem is that the amount of asinine changes and unnecessary shuffling of standard libraries is so consistent that a good number of libraries have a grid of compatibility with different Python versions. So version 1.1.0 is compatibe python 3.8, 3.9 and 3.10 and version 1.2.0 is compatible with python => 3.11 (until the next breaking change is introduced), you have to pick and choose depending on which python version you are using, and sometimes you have impossible combinations and pip enters an almost never ending loop trying to find combinations of libraries that work with each other. I've been developing, packaging and creating our own deployment tooling since python 2.2 and I cannot believe how Python devs are still shuffling stuff around instead of working on fixing package management.

kerkeslager 3y ago

> Count me in the "don't make breaking changes" camp. You can spit out warnings to prevent developers from using certain language features in new code, but changes which outright break old code should be extremely rare. "Extremely rare" != "never". > This is how Javascript works (the language, not the ecosystem around it), and it means I can update my web browser and continue visiting old websites. ...and there are reasons for this which don't apply to Python. A typical JavaScript deployment needs to run on millions of machines which the developer doesn't control, and coordinating an update of a JavaScript version to all the machines it needs to run on isn't feasible. Python is usually not run under these constraints: in the typical case, Python runs on servers which the person running it on controls. JavaScript pays an extremely high cost for this, continuing to support decades-old horrible misfeatures such as nonsensical typecasts, returning undefined from nonexistent members, and a variety of incompatible ways to make asynchronous calls. You shouldn't do this unless you have a very strong reason to do so, and these misfeatures is one of the main reasons you shouldn't use JavaScript unless you have a strong reason to do so.