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Hungary and Slovakia, the only European countries that haven't allowed illegal immigration in, are at the bottom of that chart, while Sweden is getting rekt...

Hungary and Slovakia, the only European countries that haven't allowed illegal immigration in, are at the bottom of that chart, while Sweden is getting rekt... Legal immigration is of course fine and necessary, as long as the state and socials systems can assimilate it... (Japan is a good example). But articles like this show concerning data points in western countries with uncontrolled migratory policies.

hakdbha 3y ago
[dead]
injeolmi_love 3y ago
Just because fascism works by its own definitions does not mean that fascism is good. Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics, even for native born citizens.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics Huh? What's wrong with living in Slovakia? You're making it sound like Slovakia is Botswana, Saudi Arabia or something when it's one of the safest and developed countries in the world, unless you opinion of Slovakia comes from the famous Bratislava scene from the movie Eurotrip.
  - injeolmi_love 3y ago
    Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008. It has relatively high hdi ratings but these have also begun to decline. Both of those things are really not good for a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet. It’s a beautiful place, and there are certainly worse countries, but calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond breaking.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008 Firstly, which developed countries (that don't have "cheat codes") haven't stagnated GDP-wise post 2008? AFAIK, most of them. >a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet Secondly, GDP growth as a number on it's own, is pretty useless, as it's not a 1:1 representation of quality of life increase for the average citizen. GPD can grow just from some billionaires moving trillions form one to another or from extracting wealth from your country and its citizens, that doesn't necessarily mean the average citizen gets a piece of that pie or gets to see better quality public services. It just feeds the "line goes up" crowd who see a country as a publicly listed corporation. Thirdly, as a country, once you reach a certain level of development by plucking the lowest hanging fruits that have been tried and tested and know to work by former industrial powers, growth becomes much harder and more capital intensive, only accessible to countries that already have crazy money to spend in R&D and innovation in the newly developing high growth markets, like the US, UK, China, Netherlands, Switzerland, Scandinavia, etc. Everyone else is stuck waiting and playing catch-up for eternity, but that doesn't mean they live poor lives. The GDP per capita of Zimbabwe grew 3x post-2008 while Slovakia has relatively stagnated, yet I know for sure in which one I'd prefer to be born in. >calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond breaking It's one of the most developed countries in the world when you look at how bad the whole world is doing right now, not just the US, Germany, Singapore or Australia, which have their own challenges when you zoom in on them and not just glance at the "line goes up" GPD numbers.
      - injeolmi_love 3y ago
        You’re right about cheat codes - liberal policies such as freedoms for immigrants, intellectuals, and entrepreneurs are the cheat codes that allow societies to outperform. Indeed, if you exclude all the countries that are successfully using these policies, there aren’t many outperforming Slovakia and many doing much worse. But my point stands that fascism is not good for the native population it proposes to protect, unless you believe that purity of blood/national spirit is itself a value.
Dah00n 3y ago
>haven't allowed illegal immigration How do you allow something legally that is illegal? If you allow it, it is not illegal. If you don't, you haven't allowed it.
- manuel_w 3y ago
  You keep it illegal for PR purposes but force below you to bend the law to allow what's illegal. That's supposedly what happened in Germany in Foreign minister Annalena Baerbocks office. Basically the embassy reported that it has all reason to believe that the passport is faked. Still, Annalena Baerbocks ministry pressured them on providing the legal documents that would allow said person to seek refugee status in Germany. Low-quality link in german language: https://www.cicero.de/aussenpolitik/visa-affare-im-auswartigen-amt-pass-baerbock-afghanistan https://www.cicero.de/aussenpolitik/visa-affare-im-auswartig...
m000 3y ago
This is xenophobic BS. Same point was recently made by many Greek far-right chaps, only to find out that the most wanted gang leader was actually Greek (read: EU passport holder). So "illegal immigration" is not the main issue here. [1] https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/03/greek-man-gang-war-sweden/ https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/03/greek-man-gang-war-swed...
HHC-Hunter 3y ago
Anyone who thinks reckless immigration policies don't lead to crime may as well stick their head in sand.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Anyone who thinks that births, breathing and mothers' milk don't lead to crime may as well stick their head in the sand.
tom_ 3y ago
[flagged]
arp242 3y ago
That charts paints a rather skewed picture by only focusing on firearms rather than murder overall. This is not a bad thing to highlight, but you should absolutely not confuse the two. Looking at [1], murder rate in Slovakia is comparable, and Hungary only slightly lower. Sweden isn't even near the top murder rate in the EU, and a number of other countries which accepted a large number of refugees have lower murder rates than Sweden. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
  There’s a concerning proclivity amongst xenophobes to use tortured statistics as means to unduly smear immigration. Even more concerning to see it take hold in highly upvoted comments here.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- htamas 3y ago
  That chart is using data from 2021, while the gang crisis in Sweden began escalating in 2022.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    So quite a while after the peak in immigration in the mid/late 2010s.
    - searealist 3y ago
      Sweden murder rate over time, it trends down until the mid 2010s: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/murder-homicide-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/murder-homi...
      - zztop44 3y ago
flohofwoe 3y ago
Why is Germany near the bottom of the chart then?
- RockCoach 3y ago
  Sweden appears to have a gun pipeline from the Balkans, while in Germany illegal firearms aren't as prevalent (as of yet). Statistics on knife killings would paint a different picture.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    To reuse the link from a sister comment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... ...when you sort by "Rate", Germany is at spot 161, Hungary at 164, and Sweden at 144 (and for comparison's sake and because it's kinda interesting/surprising: Russia and the US are also identical at spot 52 and 53). So even when taking knife killings into account the argument doesn't make sense, Germany is much closer (actually pretty much identical) to "poster child" Hungary than Sweden.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    That does not seem to be true. The most recent good data seems to be from 2019[0] and shows Germany with 0.34 stabbing deaths per 100k people, one of the lowest in the world, and lower than Sweden (0.35) and Hungary (0.41). [0]https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-...
  - lispm 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
    - RockCoach 3y ago
      What are you trying to say?

hakdbha 3y ago

[dead]

injeolmi_love 3y ago

Just because fascism works by its own definitions does not mean that fascism is good. Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics, even for native born citizens.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are great places to live by most metrics Huh? What's wrong with living in Slovakia? You're making it sound like Slovakia is Botswana, Saudi Arabia or something when it's one of the safest and developed countries in the world, unless you opinion of Slovakia comes from the famous Bratislava scene from the movie Eurotrip.
- injeolmi_love 3y ago
  Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008. It has relatively high hdi ratings but these have also begun to decline. Both of those things are really not good for a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet. It’s a beautiful place, and there are certainly worse countries, but calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond breaking.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Slovakia has a gdp per capita of around $21k and has stagnated with low growth since 2008 Firstly, which developed countries (that don't have "cheat codes") haven't stagnated GDP-wise post 2008? AFAIK, most of them. >a country that hasn’t climbed out of the middle income trap yet Secondly, GDP growth as a number on it's own, is pretty useless, as it's not a 1:1 representation of quality of life increase for the average citizen. GPD can grow just from some billionaires moving trillions form one to another or from extracting wealth from your country and its citizens, that doesn't necessarily mean the average citizen gets a piece of that pie or gets to see better quality public services. It just feeds the "line goes up" crowd who see a country as a publicly listed corporation. Thirdly, as a country, once you reach a certain level of development by plucking the lowest hanging fruits that have been tried and tested and know to work by former industrial powers, growth becomes much harder and more capital intensive, only accessible to countries that already have crazy money to spend in R&D and innovation in the newly developing high growth markets, like the US, UK, China, Netherlands, Switzerland, Scandinavia, etc. Everyone else is stuck waiting and playing catch-up for eternity, but that doesn't mean they live poor lives. The GDP per capita of Zimbabwe grew 3x post-2008 while Slovakia has relatively stagnated, yet I know for sure in which one I'd prefer to be born in. >calling it one of the most developed countries is stretching the facts beyond breaking It's one of the most developed countries in the world when you look at how bad the whole world is doing right now, not just the US, Germany, Singapore or Australia, which have their own challenges when you zoom in on them and not just glance at the "line goes up" GPD numbers.
    - injeolmi_love 3y ago
      You’re right about cheat codes - liberal policies such as freedoms for immigrants, intellectuals, and entrepreneurs are the cheat codes that allow societies to outperform. Indeed, if you exclude all the countries that are successfully using these policies, there aren’t many outperforming Slovakia and many doing much worse. But my point stands that fascism is not good for the native population it proposes to protect, unless you believe that purity of blood/national spirit is itself a value.

Dah00n 3y ago

>haven't allowed illegal immigration How do you allow something legally that is illegal? If you allow it, it is not illegal. If you don't, you haven't allowed it.

manuel_w 3y ago
You keep it illegal for PR purposes but force below you to bend the law to allow what's illegal. That's supposedly what happened in Germany in Foreign minister Annalena Baerbocks office. Basically the embassy reported that it has all reason to believe that the passport is faked. Still, Annalena Baerbocks ministry pressured them on providing the legal documents that would allow said person to seek refugee status in Germany. Low-quality link in german language: https://www.cicero.de/aussenpolitik/visa-affare-im-auswartigen-amt-pass-baerbock-afghanistan https://www.cicero.de/aussenpolitik/visa-affare-im-auswartig...

m000 3y ago

This is xenophobic BS. Same point was recently made by many Greek far-right chaps, only to find out that the most wanted gang leader was actually Greek (read: EU passport holder). So "illegal immigration" is not the main issue here. [1] https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/03/greek-man-gang-war-sweden/ https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/03/greek-man-gang-war-swed...

HHC-Hunter 3y ago

Anyone who thinks reckless immigration policies don't lead to crime may as well stick their head in sand.

jacquesm 3y ago
Anyone who thinks that births, breathing and mothers' milk don't lead to crime may as well stick their head in the sand.

tom_ 3y ago

[flagged]

arp242 3y ago

That charts paints a rather skewed picture by only focusing on firearms rather than murder overall. This is not a bad thing to highlight, but you should absolutely not confuse the two. Looking at [1], murder rate in Slovakia is comparable, and Hungary only slightly lower. Sweden isn't even near the top murder rate in the EU, and a number of other countries which accepted a large number of refugees have lower murder rates than Sweden. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
There’s a concerning proclivity amongst xenophobes to use tortured statistics as means to unduly smear immigration. Even more concerning to see it take hold in highly upvoted comments here.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
htamas 3y ago
That chart is using data from 2021, while the gang crisis in Sweden began escalating in 2022.
- zztop44 3y ago
  So quite a while after the peak in immigration in the mid/late 2010s.
  - searealist 3y ago
    Sweden murder rate over time, it trends down until the mid 2010s: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/murder-homicide-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/murder-homi...
    - zztop44 3y ago

flohofwoe 3y ago

Why is Germany near the bottom of the chart then?

RockCoach 3y ago
Sweden appears to have a gun pipeline from the Balkans, while in Germany illegal firearms aren't as prevalent (as of yet). Statistics on knife killings would paint a different picture.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  To reuse the link from a sister comment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... ...when you sort by "Rate", Germany is at spot 161, Hungary at 164, and Sweden at 144 (and for comparison's sake and because it's kinda interesting/surprising: Russia and the US are also identical at spot 52 and 53). So even when taking knife killings into account the argument doesn't make sense, Germany is much closer (actually pretty much identical) to "poster child" Hungary than Sweden.
- zztop44 3y ago
  That does not seem to be true. The most recent good data seems to be from 2019[0] and shows Germany with 0.34 stabbing deaths per 100k people, one of the lowest in the world, and lower than Sweden (0.35) and Hungary (0.41). [0]https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-...
- lispm 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
  - RockCoach 3y ago
    What are you trying to say?