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> Well, Josh is here so he will again start to deflect for some weeks and hope everyone will just forget about it until the next merry go round This has been m

> Well, Josh is here so he will again start to deflect for some weeks and hope everyone will just forget about it until the next merry go round This has been my experience with how Matrix handles critique in general, e.g. the response to "why not matrix?" which left me disappointed. Looking at this, and also at low quality of the reference clients and servers, over-engineered protocols and the poor UX in general it does not convince me that Matrix is a good solution to consider.

tentacleuno 3y ago
Why not Matrix? Here's one reason: it has incredibly hard-to-debug edge cases, and plenty of bugs. One of my favourites is the one where people are kicked out of your room at random, which was reported a year ago[0]. It wasn't fixed, however, because the head of the Matrix foundation (Matthew) didn't seem to like the issue being posted on Twitter. The reporter took down the tweet, and it's still now effectively abandoned (despite it still being an issue; I've spoken to quite a few mods about it). This is honestly really disappointing behaviour from a platform owner. [0]: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481
- Arathorn 3y ago
  wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I know it's incredibly hard to not take it personally when people call your baby ugly, but you're not helping things by being defensive. People seem to have issues with how you (as a company) handle bugs and criticism, and while it may not seem fair or accurate, at very least, it's likely that your company's responses contribute to the perception. If nothing else, it points out a communication problem.
  - tentacleuno 3y ago
    > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. My intent isn't to "pile-on"; it's to provide insight into the issues people have with Matrix. I understand that it's your creation, but judging by this and the GitHub thread, it seems like you get quite defensive in these situations. Ultimately, these are valid criticisms of the platform; people aren't personally attacking you or the project. Personally I commend what you've created. > I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Well, the issue was posted above. The Graphene guy posted it on Twitter, and by doing so you claimed he "slagged [you] off"[0]. > Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding. This is the part I don't understand. If you're working on it in private, you acknowledge it may be a security risk (plus your use of the word "attack"), but you've also de-prioritized it because it's not a security risk? [0]: "what the hell is this? We have burnt a bunch of time investigating this and trying to help you on this today, and in return we get slagged off on twitter?!" https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomment-1320728391 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomm...
    - Arathorn 3y ago
      > The Graphene guy posted it on Twitter, and by doing so you claimed he "slagged [you] off"[0]. I forget the precise contents of their deleted tweets, and I'd be first to admit that for better or worse I try to be authentic when typing here or elsewhere, rather than faking being calm & anodyne. Based on the feedback here & elsewhere, that's probably a mistake. In this instance, having Graphene screaming about how awful Matrix is and enumerating ways to cause moderation problems was not helpful during a moderation incident, especially where we had been scrambling to help them. > This is the part I don't understand. If you're working on it in private, you acknowledge it may be a security risk (plus your use of the word "attack") Correct. Any bug in the state resolution algorithm could potentially eventually turn out to have security implications. > but you've also de-prioritized it because it's not a security risk? We haven't explicitly de-prioritised, but other things have come along at higher priority. The reason we haven't bumped its priority higher is because it happens rarely, and the chances of security impact look to be relatively low.
  - Jasper_ 3y ago
    Talking about a serious bug where thousands of people appear to be kicked from rooms that's been going on for over a year is not a "pile-on". It's a very bad experience for everyone involved, and people are just pointing it out. Your inability to empathize with other people having a bad experience using your product is not doing you favors here. Matrix and Element are consistently one of the buggiest messaging applications I interact with, and I've waited years for it to be better.
    - tentacleuno 3y ago
      > Matrix and Element are consistently one of the buggiest messaging applications I interact with Oh same, though I've found that Nheko Reborn is a much better client than Element (like, it's not even close). There's no getting around Synapse though; we're actually experiencing the bug I linked above, and it's absolutely dreadful to deal with.
- vilunov 3y ago
  FYI I'm referring to the specific "why not matrix?" piece which was posted on telegraph and then was replied to by a matrix developer on lobsters. I don't want to link to them directly, hopefully you can find them both, but it's a good read if you thought about going all in on Matrix. The response particularly left me disappointed, since we still experience lots of bugs, which were allegedly fixed.
regularjack 3y ago
I agree with many of the issues you mentioned, but I still thing Matrix is the best-positioned solution in the space. I think all those issues can be addressed, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

tentacleuno 3y ago

Why not Matrix? Here's one reason: it has incredibly hard-to-debug edge cases, and plenty of bugs. One of my favourites is the one where people are kicked out of your room at random, which was reported a year ago[0]. It wasn't fixed, however, because the head of the Matrix foundation (Matthew) didn't seem to like the issue being posted on Twitter. The reporter took down the tweet, and it's still now effectively abandoned (despite it still being an issue; I've spoken to quite a few mods about it). This is honestly really disappointing behaviour from a platform owner. [0]: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481

Arathorn 3y ago
wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I know it's incredibly hard to not take it personally when people call your baby ugly, but you're not helping things by being defensive. People seem to have issues with how you (as a company) handle bugs and criticism, and while it may not seem fair or accurate, at very least, it's likely that your company's responses contribute to the perception. If nothing else, it points out a communication problem.
- tentacleuno 3y ago
  > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. My intent isn't to "pile-on"; it's to provide insight into the issues people have with Matrix. I understand that it's your creation, but judging by this and the GitHub thread, it seems like you get quite defensive in these situations. Ultimately, these are valid criticisms of the platform; people aren't personally attacking you or the project. Personally I commend what you've created. > I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Well, the issue was posted above. The Graphene guy posted it on Twitter, and by doing so you claimed he "slagged [you] off"[0]. > Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding. This is the part I don't understand. If you're working on it in private, you acknowledge it may be a security risk (plus your use of the word "attack"), but you've also de-prioritized it because it's not a security risk? [0]: "what the hell is this? We have burnt a bunch of time investigating this and trying to help you on this today, and in return we get slagged off on twitter?!" https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomment-1320728391 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomm...
  - Arathorn 3y ago
    > The Graphene guy posted it on Twitter, and by doing so you claimed he "slagged [you] off"[0]. I forget the precise contents of their deleted tweets, and I'd be first to admit that for better or worse I try to be authentic when typing here or elsewhere, rather than faking being calm & anodyne. Based on the feedback here & elsewhere, that's probably a mistake. In this instance, having Graphene screaming about how awful Matrix is and enumerating ways to cause moderation problems was not helpful during a moderation incident, especially where we had been scrambling to help them. > This is the part I don't understand. If you're working on it in private, you acknowledge it may be a security risk (plus your use of the word "attack") Correct. Any bug in the state resolution algorithm could potentially eventually turn out to have security implications. > but you've also de-prioritized it because it's not a security risk? We haven't explicitly de-prioritised, but other things have come along at higher priority. The reason we haven't bumped its priority higher is because it happens rarely, and the chances of security impact look to be relatively low.
- Jasper_ 3y ago
  Talking about a serious bug where thousands of people appear to be kicked from rooms that's been going on for over a year is not a "pile-on". It's a very bad experience for everyone involved, and people are just pointing it out. Your inability to empathize with other people having a bad experience using your product is not doing you favors here. Matrix and Element are consistently one of the buggiest messaging applications I interact with, and I've waited years for it to be better.
  - tentacleuno 3y ago
    > Matrix and Element are consistently one of the buggiest messaging applications I interact with Oh same, though I've found that Nheko Reborn is a much better client than Element (like, it's not even close). There's no getting around Synapse though; we're actually experiencing the bug I linked above, and it's absolutely dreadful to deal with.
vilunov 3y ago
FYI I'm referring to the specific "why not matrix?" piece which was posted on telegraph and then was replied to by a matrix developer on lobsters. I don't want to link to them directly, hopefully you can find them both, but it's a good read if you thought about going all in on Matrix. The response particularly left me disappointed, since we still experience lots of bugs, which were allegedly fixed.

regularjack 3y ago

I agree with many of the issues you mentioned, but I still thing Matrix is the best-positioned solution in the space. I think all those issues can be addressed, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.