3 ms·

And what, exactly, is the "elephant in the room"? If this is meant to be a dogwhistle about immigration, it seems appropriate to observe that many of the count

And what, exactly, is the "elephant in the room"? If this is meant to be a dogwhistle about immigration, it seems appropriate to observe that many of the countries TFA compares Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates.

NicoJuicy 3y ago
> Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates. You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. Ps. I'm from Belgium
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. I go to Brussels at least once a year. Again with the obliqueness: is there something specific you want to say? Is the implication that your national police force is suppressing the "real" murder rate?
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    Criminality isn't just murder rates https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid-kampt-met-toenemende-criminaliteit/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid...
- fullspectrumdev 3y ago
  I stay in that area with friends whenever I visit. It’s completely fine.
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    Male and walking in the day+ not alone? - A friend of mine had an escort picking her up at the station from her work. - My mom + a friend of her felt threatened by a non-native, when taking the train back from the airport. These are retired women and my mom's friend travels 3 x a year everywhere. She felt the most unsafe here in Brussels and not taking the train again. ( This was after Operation "cleanup") - Operation cleanup in Brussels South - ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-days-after-the-major-police-operation-first/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-d... ) which resulted in 56 arrests and some people on a wanted list ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-police-operation-around-brussels-south-station/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-polic... ). Note: this was a criminal cleanup that was mentioned on the media upfront - 5 younger kids from Brussels raped an ex in Malta ( news update from 16/11/2023) https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-vrij-op-borg-in-malta-verkrachting/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-v... - News from 2 days ago ( 18/11/2023) The most popular bars ( Delirium, you've probably went ) where 2 female tourists got drugged and raped https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn-shirt-opgetrokken-of-mijn-broek-opengeritst-margot-22-werd-gedrogeerd-tijdens-avondje-uit-in-brussel~ad5a4909/ https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn... Plenty of other examples. Including from people living there or lived there. https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-station-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-sta... Or... it's a coincidence that Abdeslam was from Molenbeek? :) Sure
arthur_sav 3y ago
As someone who has lived in some of these countries in the past 10 years. Sweden is simply too nice to criminals. Police, laws... everything. Other countries have no tolerance for that.
- thelittleone 3y ago
  Agree have family I'm Sweden. Its often said the crime deterrence is a factor of severity of punishment * probability of being caught. The jails in Sweden offer a decent standard of living. Where the offende is a refugee / immigrant they likely find it better than where they escaped.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    1.) its not often said that crime deterrence is a factor of severity of punishment * probability of being caught. It’s often said that crime deterrence is a complex issue and that probability of being caught seems to be vastly more powerful than the severity of punishment, for some reason. 2.) It’s still prison. You’re still locked up. Even people from poor countries want to be free.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  "Other countries" mention were Denmark. They are not especially different from Sweden on punishing crime.
- Lacerda69 3y ago
  Sweden has far less crime than countries with harsher sentences or a more punitive criminal system.
jacquesm 3y ago
Hm. We do have those same violent crime rates, but it is clearly linked to the drug trade.
ecmascript 3y ago
There is no country that compares to sweden if you compare the numbers by capita.
- brazzy 3y ago
  Absolutely wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...
- woodruffw 3y ago
  Again: which numbers? Don't dogwhistle, spit it out. If you mean immigration: roughly 1 in 4 Swedish residents are either first- or second-generation immigrants[1]. This is directly comparable to Belgium[2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Demographics [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium#Demographics
mupuff1234 3y ago
https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2023/06/26/public-nuisance-and-crime-rate-keeps-pace-with-number-of-asylum-seekers https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2023/06/26/public-nuis...
bad_user 3y ago
I don't know about the others, but Greece tends to be a transit country, not a final destination. It does get immigrants, but those interested in crime tend to migrate to higher-GDP countries. I can see the same trend in my country too. The people coming here, for now, are very hardworking and law-abiding, whereas those interested in crime tend to migrate, our natives included, too. It's good to know that immigrants, no matter the nationality, ethnicity, or religion, follow a normal distribution. Some of them are criminals or bigots, whereas most of them are just normal people trying to find work and raise a family. Europe needs immigrants, it would be foolish to close borders. But we need to be tougher on crime, too. Immigrants that don't quickly adopt our laws and liberal values should be expelled because otherwise, the crime rate goes up, then far-right parties take over. And what happens next in such scenarios is that the law-abiding immigrants suffer, actually.
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  Can you give 1 example where the solution you suggest has worked in the long term? i.e.: my population pyramid is broken, I am going to replace the base of the pyramid with foreigners. I do not have a problem with that idea, but bringing people from territories where marrying your 1st cousin is legal is a bad idea with bad consequences: lower IQ, expensive health conditions, bad temperament (and hence crime), etc.
  - t-3 3y ago
    > bringing people from territories where marrying your 1st cousin is legal is a bad idea with bad consequences Like half the US? (and the map for that looks probably exactly opposite what you're thinking right now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_Uni... )
- usrusr 3y ago
  Immigrants are rarely much of a crime problem. First and second generation descendants on the other hand... there really aren't any simple solutions, at least not as long as we agree that an individual cannot be punished for a statistic about their future descendants.

NicoJuicy 3y ago

> Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates. You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. Ps. I'm from Belgium

woodruffw 3y ago
> You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. I go to Brussels at least once a year. Again with the obliqueness: is there something specific you want to say? Is the implication that your national police force is suppressing the "real" murder rate?
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  Criminality isn't just murder rates https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid-kampt-met-toenemende-criminaliteit/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid...
fullspectrumdev 3y ago
I stay in that area with friends whenever I visit. It’s completely fine.
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  Male and walking in the day+ not alone? - A friend of mine had an escort picking her up at the station from her work. - My mom + a friend of her felt threatened by a non-native, when taking the train back from the airport. These are retired women and my mom's friend travels 3 x a year everywhere. She felt the most unsafe here in Brussels and not taking the train again. ( This was after Operation "cleanup") - Operation cleanup in Brussels South - ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-days-after-the-major-police-operation-first/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-d... ) which resulted in 56 arrests and some people on a wanted list ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-police-operation-around-brussels-south-station/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-polic... ). Note: this was a criminal cleanup that was mentioned on the media upfront - 5 younger kids from Brussels raped an ex in Malta ( news update from 16/11/2023) https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-vrij-op-borg-in-malta-verkrachting/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-v... - News from 2 days ago ( 18/11/2023) The most popular bars ( Delirium, you've probably went ) where 2 female tourists got drugged and raped https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn-shirt-opgetrokken-of-mijn-broek-opengeritst-margot-22-werd-gedrogeerd-tijdens-avondje-uit-in-brussel~ad5a4909/ https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn... Plenty of other examples. Including from people living there or lived there. https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-station-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-sta... Or... it's a coincidence that Abdeslam was from Molenbeek? :) Sure

arthur_sav 3y ago

As someone who has lived in some of these countries in the past 10 years. Sweden is simply too nice to criminals. Police, laws... everything. Other countries have no tolerance for that.

thelittleone 3y ago
Agree have family I'm Sweden. Its often said the crime deterrence is a factor of severity of punishment * probability of being caught. The jails in Sweden offer a decent standard of living. Where the offende is a refugee / immigrant they likely find it better than where they escaped.
- zztop44 3y ago
  1.) its not often said that crime deterrence is a factor of severity of punishment * probability of being caught. It’s often said that crime deterrence is a complex issue and that probability of being caught seems to be vastly more powerful than the severity of punishment, for some reason. 2.) It’s still prison. You’re still locked up. Even people from poor countries want to be free.
Dah00n 3y ago
"Other countries" mention were Denmark. They are not especially different from Sweden on punishing crime.
Lacerda69 3y ago
Sweden has far less crime than countries with harsher sentences or a more punitive criminal system.

jacquesm 3y ago

Hm. We do have those same violent crime rates, but it is clearly linked to the drug trade.

ecmascript 3y ago

There is no country that compares to sweden if you compare the numbers by capita.

brazzy 3y ago
Absolutely wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...
woodruffw 3y ago
Again: which numbers? Don't dogwhistle, spit it out. If you mean immigration: roughly 1 in 4 Swedish residents are either first- or second-generation immigrants[1]. This is directly comparable to Belgium[2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Demographics [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium#Demographics

mupuff1234 3y ago

https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2023/06/26/public-nuisance-and-crime-rate-keeps-pace-with-number-of-asylum-seekers https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2023/06/26/public-nuis...

bad_user 3y ago

I don't know about the others, but Greece tends to be a transit country, not a final destination. It does get immigrants, but those interested in crime tend to migrate to higher-GDP countries. I can see the same trend in my country too. The people coming here, for now, are very hardworking and law-abiding, whereas those interested in crime tend to migrate, our natives included, too. It's good to know that immigrants, no matter the nationality, ethnicity, or religion, follow a normal distribution. Some of them are criminals or bigots, whereas most of them are just normal people trying to find work and raise a family. Europe needs immigrants, it would be foolish to close borders. But we need to be tougher on crime, too. Immigrants that don't quickly adopt our laws and liberal values should be expelled because otherwise, the crime rate goes up, then far-right parties take over. And what happens next in such scenarios is that the law-abiding immigrants suffer, actually.

29athrowaway 3y ago
Can you give 1 example where the solution you suggest has worked in the long term? i.e.: my population pyramid is broken, I am going to replace the base of the pyramid with foreigners. I do not have a problem with that idea, but bringing people from territories where marrying your 1st cousin is legal is a bad idea with bad consequences: lower IQ, expensive health conditions, bad temperament (and hence crime), etc.
- t-3 3y ago
  > bringing people from territories where marrying your 1st cousin is legal is a bad idea with bad consequences Like half the US? (and the map for that looks probably exactly opposite what you're thinking right now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_Uni... )
usrusr 3y ago
Immigrants are rarely much of a crime problem. First and second generation descendants on the other hand... there really aren't any simple solutions, at least not as long as we agree that an individual cannot be punished for a statistic about their future descendants.