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I am following the thread for years now and their financials were always a shitshow. I believe they never released anything on time or without the community beg

I am following the thread for years now and their financials were always a shitshow. I believe they never released anything on time or without the community begging for it. Well, except some fluff blog post at the end of the year without real data. I love Matrix but it's a fishy foundation. With this and Element not releasing server code under apache 2 anymore, it looks more and more like Element is going for entshitification. Edit: Well, Josh is here so he will again start to deflect for some weeks and hope everyone will just forget about it until the next merry go round. sic

lolinder 3y ago
> Edit: Well, Josh is here so he will again start to deflect for some weeks and hope everyone will just forget about it until the next merry go round. This is more of a meta-comment, but responding to a reply by editing your comment isn't fair play. It retroactively colors their response, and if they want to reply to your edit then the whole thread becomes a mess to follow for anyone else. Let Josh have his say and reply to him if you think his response is deflection, but please don't preempt him with a sarcastic edit.
- vilunov 3y ago
  That edit was here before that comment received any replies, so this is not a response by edit.
vilunov 3y ago
> Well, Josh is here so he will again start to deflect for some weeks and hope everyone will just forget about it until the next merry go round This has been my experience with how Matrix handles critique in general, e.g. the response to "why not matrix?" which left me disappointed. Looking at this, and also at low quality of the reference clients and servers, over-engineered protocols and the poor UX in general it does not convince me that Matrix is a good solution to consider.
- tentacleuno 3y ago
  Why not Matrix? Here's one reason: it has incredibly hard-to-debug edge cases, and plenty of bugs. One of my favourites is the one where people are kicked out of your room at random, which was reported a year ago[0]. It wasn't fixed, however, because the head of the Matrix foundation (Matthew) didn't seem to like the issue being posted on Twitter. The reporter took down the tweet, and it's still now effectively abandoned (despite it still being an issue; I've spoken to quite a few mods about it). This is honestly really disappointing behaviour from a platform owner. [0]: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481
  - Arathorn 3y ago
    wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding.
    - meepmorp 3y ago
      > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I know it's incredibly hard to not take it personally when people call your baby ugly, but you're not helping things by being defensive. People seem to have issues with how you (as a company) handle bugs and criticism, and while it may not seem fair or accurate, at very least, it's likely that your company's responses contribute to the perception. If nothing else, it points out a communication problem.
    - tentacleuno 3y ago
      > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. My intent isn't to "pile-on"; it's to provide insight into the issues people have with Matrix. I understand that it's your creation, but judging by this and the GitHub thread, it seems like you get quite defensive in these situations. Ultimately, these are valid criticisms of the platform; people aren't personally attacking you or the project. Personally I commend what you've created. > I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Well, the issue was posted above. The Graphene guy posted it on Twitter, and by doing so you claimed he "slagged [you] off"[0]. > Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding. This is the part I don't understand. If you're working on it in private, you acknowledge it may be a security risk (plus your use of the word "attack"), but you've also de-prioritized it because it's not a security risk? [0]: "what the hell is this? We have burnt a bunch of time investigating this and trying to help you on this today, and in return we get slagged off on twitter?!" https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomment-1320728391 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomm...
joshsimmons 3y ago
I get that we're operating in a low trust environment, and you don't yet have any reason to trust me. I will say this: I'm not here to carry water for past performance. I _am_ here to build the foundation into the organization the community deserves, and I have a track record when it comes to making organizations more responsive to the communities they serve. Not only will I respond to the questions and concerns, I am actually working on systemic solutions that will provide transparency as a matter of course. Of course, these are just words for now. Judge me by my actions in the days and months ahead, and know that I do aim to earn your trust. Edited to add: *and I aim to build the foundation into the kind of organization that, by merit of its rules, processes, and community representation in governance, doesn't require us to be trusting in the first place.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  I'll believe you when I see more than empty phrases but tbh I am over hyping up Element/Matrix, so do whatever you want.
  - VoxPelli 3y ago
    Josh has quite the track record from elsewhere, having eg served as president for the very Open Source Initiative itself, so I do think it’s fair to give him time here
- pierat 3y ago
  Put up (the financials and data), or shut up.
  - VoxPelli 3y ago
    Josh literally started less than six months ago and is the first employee of the foundation – do you think that there are some papers ready here and now for him to hand out? Needlessly aggressive tone from you…
  - gloryjulio 3y ago
    Agree with that. Upvoted for the visibility. This issue has going on for years. No more excuses

lolinder 3y ago

> Edit: Well, Josh is here so he will again start to deflect for some weeks and hope everyone will just forget about it until the next merry go round. This is more of a meta-comment, but responding to a reply by editing your comment isn't fair play. It retroactively colors their response, and if they want to reply to your edit then the whole thread becomes a mess to follow for anyone else. Let Josh have his say and reply to him if you think his response is deflection, but please don't preempt him with a sarcastic edit.

vilunov 3y ago
That edit was here before that comment received any replies, so this is not a response by edit.

vilunov 3y ago

> Well, Josh is here so he will again start to deflect for some weeks and hope everyone will just forget about it until the next merry go round This has been my experience with how Matrix handles critique in general, e.g. the response to "why not matrix?" which left me disappointed. Looking at this, and also at low quality of the reference clients and servers, over-engineered protocols and the poor UX in general it does not convince me that Matrix is a good solution to consider.

tentacleuno 3y ago
Why not Matrix? Here's one reason: it has incredibly hard-to-debug edge cases, and plenty of bugs. One of my favourites is the one where people are kicked out of your room at random, which was reported a year ago[0]. It wasn't fixed, however, because the head of the Matrix foundation (Matthew) didn't seem to like the issue being posted on Twitter. The reporter took down the tweet, and it's still now effectively abandoned (despite it still being an issue; I've spoken to quite a few mods about it). This is honestly really disappointing behaviour from a platform owner. [0]: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481
- Arathorn 3y ago
  wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. I know it's incredibly hard to not take it personally when people call your baby ugly, but you're not helping things by being defensive. People seem to have issues with how you (as a company) handle bugs and criticism, and while it may not seem fair or accurate, at very least, it's likely that your company's responses contribute to the perception. If nothing else, it points out a communication problem.
  - tentacleuno 3y ago
    > wow, the pile-on is real tonight. My intent isn't to "pile-on"; it's to provide insight into the issues people have with Matrix. I understand that it's your creation, but judging by this and the GitHub thread, it seems like you get quite defensive in these situations. Ultimately, these are valid criticisms of the platform; people aren't personally attacking you or the project. Personally I commend what you've created. > I suggested that GrapheneOS stopped enumerating potential ways to attack Matrix rooms on Twitter if they actually wanted to discourage attacks. Well, the issue was posted above. The Graphene guy posted it on Twitter, and by doing so you claimed he "slagged [you] off"[0]. > Meanwhile, that issue has not remotely been abandoned, and has continued to be worked on in private (given the risk it might have security impact) - although as it's a rare edge case without a known security impact, it's competing with a lot of the other work we do to support Matrix, hence slow progress; especially with highly constrained funding. This is the part I don't understand. If you're working on it in private, you acknowledge it may be a security risk (plus your use of the word "attack"), but you've also de-prioritized it because it's not a security risk? [0]: "what the hell is this? We have burnt a bunch of time investigating this and trying to help you on this today, and in return we get slagged off on twitter?!" https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomment-1320728391 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/14481#issuecomm...

joshsimmons 3y ago

I get that we're operating in a low trust environment, and you don't yet have any reason to trust me. I will say this: I'm not here to carry water for past performance. I _am_ here to build the foundation into the organization the community deserves, and I have a track record when it comes to making organizations more responsive to the communities they serve. Not only will I respond to the questions and concerns, I am actually working on systemic solutions that will provide transparency as a matter of course. Of course, these are just words for now. Judge me by my actions in the days and months ahead, and know that I do aim to earn your trust. Edited to add: *and I aim to build the foundation into the kind of organization that, by merit of its rules, processes, and community representation in governance, doesn't require us to be trusting in the first place.

Zetobal 3y ago
I'll believe you when I see more than empty phrases but tbh I am over hyping up Element/Matrix, so do whatever you want.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  Josh has quite the track record from elsewhere, having eg served as president for the very Open Source Initiative itself, so I do think it’s fair to give him time here
pierat 3y ago
Put up (the financials and data), or shut up.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  Josh literally started less than six months ago and is the first employee of the foundation – do you think that there are some papers ready here and now for him to hand out? Needlessly aggressive tone from you…
- gloryjulio 3y ago
  Agree with that. Upvoted for the visibility. This issue has going on for years. No more excuses