4 ms·

> In principle, adding rationality should allow one to allow one to reduce the ritual content to a minimum (eg "we hold elections every 4 years whose results de

> In principle, adding rationality should allow one to allow one to reduce the ritual content to a minimum (eg "we hold elections every 4 years whose results determine the leader of the executive branch"?)... Surely you're not implying our current political systems are rational are you?

082349872349872 3y ago
(a) the political system example was meant to be of the shared, ritual, content (b) events of 6.i.2021 in the US suggest that although such knowledge is certainly common, belief in it may not exactly be universal
- mistermann 3y ago
  Which is a sign for hope imho.
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    I'm not sure I understand; care to explicate?
    - mistermann 3y ago
      The January 6 people, like most Americans (and even more so: observers of America), realize what "democracy" is described/implied to be, is not what it actually is: a mirage, an illusion, a magic act. And their.....unique personality types did not prevent them from doing "the right thing", which is to simply complain about it endlessly online, expecting the illusion to fix itself, to put itself out of business. What resulted was a hilarious debacle of course, but at least they're trying.
      - 082349872349872 3y ago
        OK, I was guessing half right then — so what should we replace the illusion with, if anything?
        mistermann 3y ago
        Consider the rise of science in society. And yet despite us now having science, so many problems remain. Perhaps science isn't the end game after all, as scientists and their fan base would have us believe.
        082349872349872 3y ago
        OK, stipulated: let's replace democratic politics and scientific research. With what?
        mistermann 3y ago
        > let's replace...scientific research That doesn't seem like a very good idea to me - I will vote to object. > let's replace democratic politics...With what? Consider how all problems in the world are solved: analyze the problem, develop a solution. Bad news though: analyze democracy and suggest solutions, you just became an employee of Putin (or, some other meme), and no one will be able to take you seriously. So it seems we have nested problems here.
        082349872349872 3y ago
        OK, just democracy then. Try me. (I won't call you an employee of Putin unless you're proposing to replace democracy with feudalism, and even then I wouldn't do it, I'd rather ask why you would think a political system based on dominance hierarchies in barnyard animals could still be suitable for collections of millions to billions of wrinkled-cortex apes...)
        mistermann 3y ago
        > OK, just democracy then. Try me. How open are you to a counter-culture whose unironic goal is literally overthrowing the "democratic" regime we live under, replacing it with something genuinely democratic? > I won't call you an employee of Putin unless you're proposing to replace democracy with feudalism, and even then I wouldn't do it.... My intuition suggests you are speaking not just honestly, but also truthfully. But I've spent a lot of time on forums arguing culture war issues, and rarely do those who say things like this say it truthfully (which can typically be discovered via a simple examination of their comment history). The distinction between truthfulness and lying is crucially important here, because while it is nice that people are sincere, if they are unable(!) to care about this important distinction, the odds of improving seem low (to solve a problem, one must first realize that one has a problem in the first place). > I'd rather ask why you would think a political system based on dominance hierarchies in barnyard animals could still be suitable for collections of millions to billions of wrinkled-cortex apes...) Oh don't worry, I don't.....even if that system was genuine (which ours is not). Some variation of this general structure though...

082349872349872 3y ago

(a) the political system example was meant to be of the shared, ritual, content (b) events of 6.i.2021 in the US suggest that although such knowledge is certainly common, belief in it may not exactly be universal

mistermann 3y ago
Which is a sign for hope imho.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  I'm not sure I understand; care to explicate?
  - mistermann 3y ago
    The January 6 people, like most Americans (and even more so: observers of America), realize what "democracy" is described/implied to be, is not what it actually is: a mirage, an illusion, a magic act. And their.....unique personality types did not prevent them from doing "the right thing", which is to simply complain about it endlessly online, expecting the illusion to fix itself, to put itself out of business. What resulted was a hilarious debacle of course, but at least they're trying.
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      OK, I was guessing half right then — so what should we replace the illusion with, if anything?
      - mistermann 3y ago
        Consider the rise of science in society. And yet despite us now having science, so many problems remain. Perhaps science isn't the end game after all, as scientists and their fan base would have us believe.
        082349872349872 3y ago
        OK, stipulated: let's replace democratic politics and scientific research. With what?
        mistermann 3y ago
        > let's replace...scientific research That doesn't seem like a very good idea to me - I will vote to object. > let's replace democratic politics...With what? Consider how all problems in the world are solved: analyze the problem, develop a solution. Bad news though: analyze democracy and suggest solutions, you just became an employee of Putin (or, some other meme), and no one will be able to take you seriously. So it seems we have nested problems here.
        082349872349872 3y ago
        OK, just democracy then. Try me. (I won't call you an employee of Putin unless you're proposing to replace democracy with feudalism, and even then I wouldn't do it, I'd rather ask why you would think a political system based on dominance hierarchies in barnyard animals could still be suitable for collections of millions to billions of wrinkled-cortex apes...)
        mistermann 3y ago
        > OK, just democracy then. Try me. How open are you to a counter-culture whose unironic goal is literally overthrowing the "democratic" regime we live under, replacing it with something genuinely democratic? > I won't call you an employee of Putin unless you're proposing to replace democracy with feudalism, and even then I wouldn't do it.... My intuition suggests you are speaking not just honestly, but also truthfully. But I've spent a lot of time on forums arguing culture war issues, and rarely do those who say things like this say it truthfully (which can typically be discovered via a simple examination of their comment history). The distinction between truthfulness and lying is crucially important here, because while it is nice that people are sincere, if they are unable(!) to care about this important distinction, the odds of improving seem low (to solve a problem, one must first realize that one has a problem in the first place). > I'd rather ask why you would think a political system based on dominance hierarchies in barnyard animals could still be suitable for collections of millions to billions of wrinkled-cortex apes...) Oh don't worry, I don't.....even if that system was genuine (which ours is not). Some variation of this general structure though...