4 ms·

I did a report on that in an economics class. I explained how there are extra legal businesses that exist in all of these countries, they are extra legal becau

by paddy_m 18y ago

I did a report on that in an economics class. I explained how there are extra legal businesses that exist in all of these countries, they are extra legal because becoming legal is impossible if not overly expensive. Then I asked the class, who here supports child labor laws? Most people raised there hands. Then I said your all wrong. I ran an extra legal business in the US. It was extra legal because I was 14, mowing lawns, had I followed the rule of law I would have been deprived of business operating opportunity.

geebee 18y ago
Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? I wonder if there's an exemption, or if this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. I like your term "extra legal." You may be right - that to truly comply with the law (ie., pay taxes, register as a business, and so forth), it's functionally impossible for a 14 year old to mow lawns for cash. I completely disagree with your take on child labor laws. I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns.
- llimllib 18y ago
  > Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? Certainly. > this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. Also true. > I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns. But the question is, do you support blanket bans on child labor? You clearly support workplace safety legislation, but that's completely irrelevant here. The question is about bans on child labor.
  - Retric 18y ago
    blanket bans on child labor? there is not a blanket ban on child labor. Also while everyone needs to pay taxes there is no need to establish a business in the US. However, setting up a business increases the owners legal protections so it's a good idea. In specific cases children as young as 2 can work think TV / movies. The limit on child labor has to do with the numbers of hours worked and the type of work being done. And this depends on state and local laws. If you read up on child labor it's surprisingly flexible and is primary designed to promote children going to school, limit the numbers of hours worked, and avoid dangerous situations. PS: http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm A few highlights at the federal level: There are 17 Hazardous Orders pertaining to all industries (other than agriculture) that forbid children under age 18 from doing any of the following jobs. 9. Mining, other than coal mining. So you can still mine coal. Minimum Age for Non-hazardous Work A child of age 10 or 11 may work as a hand-harvest laborer for no more than 8 weeks in a year. For older children "In agriculture, the only restriction on hours of employment is that children cannot work during school hours." "There are no work hours limitations for 16- and 17-year-olds." 14 year olds "cannot work more than 3 hours on a school day or more than 18 hours in a school week, or more than 8 hours on a non-school day or more than 40 hours in a non-school week." So depending on how dangerous your mowing business was and how many hours a week your worked there was probably nothing wrong. You would have also needed to be making over minimum wage but this is reduced to 4.25 "for your first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer."
  - geebee 18y ago
    I definitely do not support a blanket ban on child labor. But I do support a different standard for workplace safety where it comes to children, so I don't think the question is irrelevant. As always, there are unintended consequences. A great article in the Mercury News called "paid by the piece" demonstrates how sub-contracting circuit board assembly clearly has led to a circumvention of child labor laws. And of course, much of our dirty industry is now handled by children overseas. For instance, small children spend as much as a day sorting through junkyards in Cambodia in order to afford just enough food to stay malnourished. The alternative, of course, is starvation.
run4yourlives 18y ago
Child Labour laws allowed you to work for yourself cutting lawns because you didn't have to work 14 hours a day in a coal mine to help support your family.
- yummyfajitas 18y ago
  Nonsense, economic growth did that. Economic growth is also the reason why most adults don't work in coal mines for 14 hours/day. Do you seriously believe that if child labor laws were abolished, children would return to the coal mines?
  - krschultz 18y ago
    Do your seriously believe childhood education would have been as pervasive without child labor laws? Only the richest could afford to send their child to school if you have the opportunity cost of giving up their paychecks. After child labor laws, what else are you kids going to do before they become old enough to work?
    - llimllib 18y ago
      You've responded to a totally different proposition than the one he presented! He argued that the abolition of child labor laws wouldn't cause a return to ceaseless child labor, and you're arguing against the notion that child labor laws in the past were not beneficial. Please don't erect strawmen in your arguments.
    - yummyfajitas 18y ago
      In the era when paddy_m grew up (i.e., 1940-2000)? Almost certainly. Incidentally, if families truly needed their children's paychecks, wouldn't child labor laws merely consign them to starvation? In reality, child labor laws merely mitigate a small problem: depraved parents forcing their children to work for personal gain. (This is small in the sense that not too many such parents exist.) But unless paddy_m's parents fall into this category, child labor laws are irrelevant to him.

by paddy_m 18y ago

geebee 18y ago

Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? I wonder if there's an exemption, or if this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. I like your term "extra legal." You may be right - that to truly comply with the law (ie., pay taxes, register as a business, and so forth), it's functionally impossible for a 14 year old to mow lawns for cash. I completely disagree with your take on child labor laws. I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns.

llimllib 18y ago
> Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? Certainly. > this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. Also true. > I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns. But the question is, do you support blanket bans on child labor? You clearly support workplace safety legislation, but that's completely irrelevant here. The question is about bans on child labor.
- Retric 18y ago
  blanket bans on child labor? there is not a blanket ban on child labor. Also while everyone needs to pay taxes there is no need to establish a business in the US. However, setting up a business increases the owners legal protections so it's a good idea. In specific cases children as young as 2 can work think TV / movies. The limit on child labor has to do with the numbers of hours worked and the type of work being done. And this depends on state and local laws. If you read up on child labor it's surprisingly flexible and is primary designed to promote children going to school, limit the numbers of hours worked, and avoid dangerous situations. PS: http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm A few highlights at the federal level: There are 17 Hazardous Orders pertaining to all industries (other than agriculture) that forbid children under age 18 from doing any of the following jobs. 9. Mining, other than coal mining. So you can still mine coal. Minimum Age for Non-hazardous Work A child of age 10 or 11 may work as a hand-harvest laborer for no more than 8 weeks in a year. For older children "In agriculture, the only restriction on hours of employment is that children cannot work during school hours." "There are no work hours limitations for 16- and 17-year-olds." 14 year olds "cannot work more than 3 hours on a school day or more than 18 hours in a school week, or more than 8 hours on a non-school day or more than 40 hours in a non-school week." So depending on how dangerous your mowing business was and how many hours a week your worked there was probably nothing wrong. You would have also needed to be making over minimum wage but this is reduced to 4.25 "for your first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer."
- geebee 18y ago
  I definitely do not support a blanket ban on child labor. But I do support a different standard for workplace safety where it comes to children, so I don't think the question is irrelevant. As always, there are unintended consequences. A great article in the Mercury News called "paid by the piece" demonstrates how sub-contracting circuit board assembly clearly has led to a circumvention of child labor laws. And of course, much of our dirty industry is now handled by children overseas. For instance, small children spend as much as a day sorting through junkyards in Cambodia in order to afford just enough food to stay malnourished. The alternative, of course, is starvation.

run4yourlives 18y ago

Child Labour laws allowed you to work for yourself cutting lawns because you didn't have to work 14 hours a day in a coal mine to help support your family.

yummyfajitas 18y ago
Nonsense, economic growth did that. Economic growth is also the reason why most adults don't work in coal mines for 14 hours/day. Do you seriously believe that if child labor laws were abolished, children would return to the coal mines?
- krschultz 18y ago
  Do your seriously believe childhood education would have been as pervasive without child labor laws? Only the richest could afford to send their child to school if you have the opportunity cost of giving up their paychecks. After child labor laws, what else are you kids going to do before they become old enough to work?
  - llimllib 18y ago
    You've responded to a totally different proposition than the one he presented! He argued that the abolition of child labor laws wouldn't cause a return to ceaseless child labor, and you're arguing against the notion that child labor laws in the past were not beneficial. Please don't erect strawmen in your arguments.
  - yummyfajitas 18y ago
    In the era when paddy_m grew up (i.e., 1940-2000)? Almost certainly. Incidentally, if families truly needed their children's paychecks, wouldn't child labor laws merely consign them to starvation? In reality, child labor laws merely mitigate a small problem: depraved parents forcing their children to work for personal gain. (This is small in the sense that not too many such parents exist.) But unless paddy_m's parents fall into this category, child labor laws are irrelevant to him.