8 ms·

Revenge bedtime procrastination

207 points by EndXA 3y ago

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
I have another name for that: Refusal to Concede. Before fall asleep, I still have a chance to do something great with my life. After, it's officially another wasted day.
- koz_ 3y ago
  Love this. How much suffering have I inflicted on myself from the sheer refusal to accept that forces other than my own will play a part in determining my destiny?
- wiseowise 3y ago
  That’s not Refusal to Concede. That’s conceding completely. By taking time out of your sleep you’re officially conceding that you can’t fight forces that impose this onto you, so you’re going to take it onto “you time”.
boh 3y ago
When you're in bed and about to sleep you have the most control of your attention. You're not on your phone, no one is trying to talk to you. The most access most people have of their attention is right before bed. Things like self-awareness, worry, ambition, memories that might've been ignored all day, are all of a sudden in the foreground of our perception, and a person finds themselves actually thinking rather than just reacting to stimuli.
bmc7505 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_buying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_buying
Aerbil313 3y ago
> …so they can feel that they have some control of their schedule. This is wrong. As a bedtime procrastinator myself, I believe it’s caused almost entirely by smartphones. Maybe read some Jonathan Haidt.
mnemotronic 3y ago
I didn't understand what this was from the title, but as soon as I read the explanation I felt like the authors had been studying me. I don't need to explain or rationalize what I'm doing here -- I am doing it, consciously, intentionally while knowing the lack of sleep is bad for me. It's kinda like smoking -- suicide for control freaks.
graposaymaname 3y ago
Thanks for putting a name on this. I’ve been suffering from this for a long time(and occasionally still do), but have started leaving my phone farther away and it has significantly improved. A part of me still feels that the sense of control and freedom which you get during the night is unparalleled.
yamrzou 3y ago
> However, note that the activities that people engage in during revenge bedtime procrastination aren’t necessarily enjoyable, and the procrastinator may engage with them simply out of a desire to feel in control. These attempts are an instance of the neurotic paradox[1], and keep repeating themselves because the desire to feel in control is never completely fulfilled. A repetition compulsion happens when unresolved conflicts continue to generate attempts at solutions which do not really work ... until a genuine solution is found. [2] [1] When an individual's way of coping with unconscious concerns creates even more problems in that individual's life. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetition_compulsion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetition_compulsion
rychco 3y ago
I’ve had a bad habit of doing this for years. I’ve recently tried to fix it but am struggling to let myself sleep & ‘waste’ the rest of the night. It’s exactly as the article suggests, I do it because I feel like my life has no personal time/privacy otherwise.
- alluro2 3y ago
  Exactly the same, and "wasting" the time is the same sentiment I have. It means I get ~5h of sleep normally, and most of the activities I do in that time are what Tim Urban (in TED talk, "Inside the mind of a procrastinator", which is excellent) calls "Dark Playground" - something I next morning feel at least a bit guilty for spending time on. For the last couple of days, during some workshops, I've slept for ~9h a day, and difference in my mential acuity today vs otherwise is impossible to deny / wave away...
- aceazzameen 3y ago
  Exactly the same for me. I subconsciously try to fight the sleep from my eyes while trying to do any activity that won't make me feel like I wasted the evening. And sometimes I have to yell at myself in my head just to go to bed when my eyes are already half closed. I don't know how to stop this habit. Maybe knowing there's a name and that it happens to other people might help me catch myself.
sleepworkasap 3y ago
Charitable take: Revenge procrastination is, as the article says, a symptom of poor emotional regulation. Our emotions push us towards having leisure/entertainment 24/7 but that is obviously not healthy even for the financially independent. Simultaneously, there is an ever-expanding universe of things to experience/study/engage with so there will always be reasons to feel that your obligations are causing you to miss out on life. So the emotional regulation is about accepting that you won't be able to do everything in life and making conscious decisions and sacrifices about what is important to you. Uncharitable take: Any article about revenge procrastination that doesn't include a call to action about legislating massive PTO minimums or a 30-hour workweek is an element of the ongoing class war. Convince labor that their struggles are internal and they'll never organize against you. That there is little political will to expand workers' rights or benefits suggests that capital is in a dominating position in the battlefield of public opinion. >How to avoid revenge bedtime procrastination >... >Think about—and potentially write down—how this behavior harms you. As always, the truth is somewhere in-between.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  > massive PTO minimums or a 30-hour workweek and WFH. i stopped staying up until 3am+ and coming into work dead tired when i started WFH full time. still didn't cure all my insomnia issues, but stopped the entirely self-inflicted ones.
- mablopoule 3y ago
  Yeah, I'm not for mindless consumption of social media designed to make you addicted, but this article really feels like the medicalization of what would be described before as a slave revolt. Playfulness isn't even a basic human traits, it's an animal trait, and yet the lack of any consideration in this article on whether the work/life balance might truly be unhealthy and people just need a breather sometimes, this feels truly sociopathic.
  - zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
    It's because they're trying to sell the reader their services. If it's a solvable medical problem then these guys can help, for a fee.
kingkongjaffa 3y ago
I did this a lot this year, usually until 3am every night. I’m a remote worker who works and games at the same desk and chair. Often I would lie to myself about being productive and then quit a tutorial after a few minutes and load up a game instead. I found I stopped since about September, mainly by telling myself nothing really productive happens after 11pm and to just go to bed.
- bentcorner 3y ago
  > Often I would lie to myself about being productive and then quit a tutorial after a few minutes and load up a game instead. I struggled with this exact thing. For me personally I was able to focus better by dual-booting my machine so that my personal desktop/storage/workspace was distinct from my work stuff. Currently I have a work laptop I use on the same desk and I turn off my personal machine during the work day.
The_Colonel 3y ago
Framing it is a revenge doesn't make sense for me. It's more like I'm asserting myself as a real person with interests, not just obligation fulfillment machine.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  Asserting against whom? Your sleep?
  - StimDeck 3y ago
    Do you have some monetary interest the sufferers in this thread seeking vengeance? In this and other comments you are antagonizing people who take exception to the connotations of the English word revenge being part of the title. If you feel like it’s revenge in your case, great, please leave the rest of us alone.
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  Revenge makes sense for me as I feel I'm "getting back" at the circumstances of my life for taking time away from me
- otikik 3y ago
  I think it’s because it was translated from a Chinese expression. Probably the original had different nuances.
kd5bjo 3y ago
I take some issue with the "revenge" terminology, as it implies an unhealthy adversarial framing of the problem. Whenever I have had to deal with this myself, I've always chosen to view it as my subconscious prioritizing some kind of emotional need over my need for sleep. Viewed that way, the solution is obvious: Identify the emotional need that I've been neglecting and figure out how to satisfy it during the normal course of my day/week. Like most simple and obvious solutions, however, putting it into practice can sometimes be quite difficult.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  Lack of sleep is literally unhealthy.
  - ZeroSolstice 3y ago
    Can you expand on your definition of "lack of sleep"? Since sleep is something that isn't uniformly measurable and is both relative and subjective to the individual what are you measuring to consider it lacking? Sleep doesn't really work in the realm of arithmetic and there is no way to credit extra sleep because you slept in on Saturday so how can you "lack" sleep because you stayed up longer one night verse the previous night? What if you did an extra exercise that day are you now lacking sleep because you exerted yourself more?
  - kd5bjo 3y ago
    So it is, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But Hanlon's razor says that we should explore the explanation that people (or their subconscious) are incompetent at satisfying this need before moving on to the theory that they're doing it out of spite.
    - ZeroSolstice 3y ago
      I agree with your point here. It is unclear to me how "lack of sleep" was derived from your initial comment. I'm hoping wiseowise can expand upon their mostly generic comment to clear the confusion.
zemvpferreira 3y ago
Not to dimish the problem but to add my own experience, consider that a delayed sleep onset can be confused with bedtime procrastination. My circadian rythm tends to 25-26 hours. Every day I feel sleepy 2 hours later than the day before. That means every day I'm tempted to delay my bedtime by 2 hours because I don't feel sleepy at all. For the longest time I though the my difficulty falling asleep was habitual/emotional/hygienic. After a decade of experimentation with caffeine, lighting, food, meditation, journaling, restricted sleep etc etc etc the best solution for me by far has been a low-dose melatonin supplement one hour before my desired bedtime. As long as I do that I hardly ever stay up longer than I should, and go to sleep immediately. Food for thought if you have chronic trouble falling asleep and don't feel like there's anything terribly 'off' about your habits. (If I'm anxious/stressed I still sleep badly)
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  You "listen" to anything or silence?
  - zemvpferreira 3y ago
    On melatonin? I'm on YouTube until my head is too heavy to hold up (a novel experience). Off melatonin? I tried silence among other things but it just makes me either bored or anxious. No way to spend 5-10% of your day.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      U ever tried listening to an anchor piece or book that you listen to every night ritualistically? I feel like it works equally well for children and adults. Everyone loves a story they've heard a million times that tells their body implicitly its time for nighty bye bye :) Edit: also, you ever try cutting the visual so there's only audio? Try it and report back ;)
      - zemvpferreira 3y ago
        [dead]
Xcelerate 3y ago
Since having children, this “revenge procrastination” has switched from late night to early morning as I typically fall asleep by 9 PM now. Imagine setting an alarm for 4 AM just to have some time for yourself in the morning. I wouldn’t call it wasted time though. I’m typically learning about machine learning or something.
- Tade0 3y ago
  This was my way of making time for my stuff without disturbing my sleep schedule as a parent. The philosophy basically is: do I want to do it bad enough to wake up early? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I learned a thing or about myself in the process.
swimwiththebeat 3y ago
It’s amazing how much attaching a name to some phenomenon or problem and discussing it helps in understanding it and taking the first steps to address it. Knowing that bedtime procrastination is a real thing that affects others not only gives me comfort, but also helps me think about it very consciously and figure out how to take the first steps to solve it. I never thought about it from the revenge and agency perspective, but I appreciate the author at least trying to hypothesize why people do this despite it being detrimental. All the suggestions and tips in the article are also incredibly helpful.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Ideas, both names and concepts, are interfaces. They are useful, though they are also limited in the sense both that the label is not the thing (the map is not the terrain), and that simply having a name for a thing is not the same as having a deep understanding for it, though having a language for discussing the thing can itself help substantially in achieving that understanding. It can also lead to cargo-cult or fad-based ("buzzword bingo") aping, however, and you want to be on the watch for that. Feynman illustrates the distinction between naming and knowing in an lecture (I believe also appearing as an essay in one of his books): See that bird? It’s a brown-throated thrush, but in Germany it’s called a Halzenfugel, and in Chinese they call it a Chung Ling and even if you know all those names for it, you still know nothing about the bird. You only know something about people; what they call the bird. Now that thrush sings, and teaches its young to fly, and flies so many miles away during the summer across the country, and nobody knows how it finds its way. <http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/what_is_science.html http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/what_is_science.html> I find Feynman a bit too dismissive of the value of shared terminology, though his broader point has merits.
- otikik 3y ago
  Names are important. One of the most important things, perhaps. It conditions how we think. For example, the denomination “fiscal paradise” could have been “tax evasion den” instead.
- extragood 3y ago
  I had a similar revelation at work recently. I've lead a team for the past several years. Our productivity and the quality of the work never was never questioned for the first ~4 years. We consistently met or exceeded expectations, and everyone was happy. In the past year of belt tightening, my leadership and methods have come under scrutiny by our executives. I've spent many hours defending my decisions, especially team structure. The thing which finally got them (mostly) off my back was sharing the name of the methodology that most resembled what I had built. Suddenly my explanations check out. While I'm happy to have a lot of that pressure relieved, it's also been a frustrating experience. My credibility relied on someone else giving a name to a methodology that I devised independently, and that was more important than any of the results of the previous 4 years.
elynde 3y ago
Bedtime procrastination is my kryptonite. Every other habit like working hard, exercising, eating right I do well at but can't fix this. I've battled with it my whole life. Even as a toddler I would stay up late reading in secret. There is just something about the stillness when everyone else is asleep where I feel like my brain can finally wind down/process the day/kick back and relax. Anyone else struggled so badly and fixed it? How?
- fatnoah 3y ago
  I've struggled since that age as well. I have good periods and bad periods, but I still can't really get to sleep unless I've had an hour of "quiet house" time. I did the same thing, BTW. I'd stay up and read, complete school workbooks ahead of time, etc.
- nunez 3y ago
  I bedtime procrastinated pretty badly. CBT-I helped a lot. It forces you to skip to a schedule. The schedule is completely set around the time that you want to get up. Or at least it forced me to; I was paying $300/mo for the privilege! Quitting Reddit helped a lot too. I wouldn't have done this had their leadership team decided to go hostile with their API access, but they did, so i did. It's been a great time-regainer. I didn't realize until after I left (and using this site more) that Reddit was designed to be a textual version of the same hooks that keep people glued to social media, which I quit almost entirely years back for the same reason. (New Reddit does infinite scroll by default, with no way of turning it off, along with boosting chats, de-emphasizing multireddits in favor of subscribed reddits, tweaks their front page to maximize engagement, rewards short, quippy posts regardless of substance, and more. I still browse Reddit through Google for finding local restaurants and things to do, but I'm enjoying that while I can until I have to trudge through TripAdvisor or city-data.) These days, I fall asleep within 15 mins of hitting the bed and wake up between 0530-0700 without an alarm feeling refreshed on most days.
  - elynde 3y ago
    Didn’t realize CBT-I was also for bedtime procrastination (vs just insomnia). Would love to hear more about this.
cortesoft 3y ago
As a parent of young children, the only alternative is to completely give up any personal time. If I go to bed when the kids go to bed, I have zero time for any of my own hobbies. I just don’t think I am willing to do that.
tkiolp4 3y ago
Perhaps off topic: if I go to sleep at 10pm (something I never do, except if I have to wake up very early for whatever reason) and wake up at 6am, I feel like crap. Very sleepy and it takes me a couple of hours to be fully awake. Those 8h don’t feel the same as when I sleep from 1am to 9am, for example (my regular sleeping time).
- crise1221 3y ago
  I think that might have to do with your body clock and schedule. As you said, those are your "regular" sleeping times. If you start to consistently go to bed at 10pm and make that "regular", you'll get the same quality of sleep as with your current schedule. But, ultimately, if 1am to 9am works for you and there are no major negative effects to your life, I wouldn't think there is anything wrong with continuing to keep that schedule.
aaron695 3y ago
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CowOfKrakatoa 3y ago
Haven't read the comments, but I have something to contribute. I am married and a parent of a 1.5-year-old child. Employed at a full-time job, working out is something I consider mandatory. Adding all this together, plus household chores, it leaves little time for personal projects or just chilling out by myself. I used to stay up late to get some alone time, but as the article describes, it is not sustainable, especially for parents. I had a project I wanted to work on, but it was difficult to focus at night after everything else was taken care of. So I flipped it. I started waking up early. I aim for 5 am; recently, it's been more like 6 am, but I've been thinking of trying out 4 am. I've never been a morning person, but you do get used to it after a few weeks. Now, I use the fresh morning energy to work on my side project, and from the moment my daughter wakes up, I start with all the responsibilities. I work out in the evening, and I don't dread going to sleep early because I wake up to my time. So, the earlier I get to bed, the more "me" time I get.
- zemvpferreira 3y ago
  One of the times in my life I got along the best with little sleep was when I woke up before dawn to go surfing. I still went to bed after midnight, but the excitement of going into the ocean got me out of bed quick as lightning. There's something to that idea for sure.
- nunez 3y ago
  I've started doing this as well this year, waking between 0530 and 0700. I work out within an hour of getting up. I'm usually ready for work between 0930 and 1030. It required a LOT of training (I am not, historically, a morning person) but I have been super consistent with it for the last few months. On a plus side, I can get up without an alarm now on a consistent basis. On the minus side, I now get super sleepy at 2200, which makes hanging out late very difficult. The alternative was starting work when I got up, but the flipside to this was my workouts getting on super late if I got hit with a late meeting. I still work out like this while I'm traveling. It usually means I have to skip on team dinner, which sucks.
- doubled112 3y ago
  This probably would work for most but mine tried to kill me. My oldest had a stretch where 5:30am was his normal, natural wake up time. By stretch I mean I think he was 6 or 7 and finally grew out of it. Alright I’m ready. Let’s go! I’m usually a 7-8am until to 12-1am kind of person, so that was tough.
MichaelRo 3y ago
Actually I do the "two sleeps" routine, particularly since I read about it and found out it's not something broken with me but it's (was) rather the normal way to sleep. After the evening meal and a little screen time I'm starting to feel very sleepy and a bit annoyed because I would like to do more activity but it becomes uncomfortable and unpleasant to fight biology. So I turn off the light and put myself in bed with the full intention of sleeping all night if so happens to be, but not opposed to wake up again if also, it happens. More often than not after 1-2 hours of nap, I wake up feeling refreshed so I turn on the light and screens (TV, phone, computer) and do more leisure stuff. Not gaming, which pumps the wrong hormones and will make it hard to go to sleep again. Browsing the net, listening to music, watching another episode from the many comedy series I started... 1-2 hours later I feel sleepy again and this time it's for good, lasts till morning. Even if I wakeup (and I do wake up 1-2 times during the night to hit the bathroom), I'm very drowsy. Half asleep make it to the bathroom cursing the weak bladder then crawl back in my bed and 5 minutes later I'm already dreaming.
DenisM 3y ago
One thing that might help a little is listening to a podcast while falling asleep. You’re doing something enjoyable that doesn’t disrupt your sleep schedule.
simmschi 3y ago
This behavior is probably pretty normal for anyone with a job, family and kids. I wouldn't associate it with 'revenge' though. For me 2 things help with the sleep deprivation, power naps and going to bed super early once in a while. Power naps started working for me nicely once I removed the stressful requirement of actually having to sleep. I just set my phone timer for 20 minutes and allow my mind to float away. Just hitting sleep for a few minutes this way is super helpful and refreshing. And 20 mins you can easily sneak in even into a work day, or when coming home from work. The going to bed super early is just me crashing once in a while. Sleep deprivation accumulates and for the sake of my health I just let my body crash at 7pm. Happens maybe once a month.
- koz_ 3y ago
  > Power naps started working for me nicely once I removed the stressful requirement of actually having to sleep. This is a lesson I keep having to relearn, that rest without sleep is still beneficial. And of course there's always a reward for 'failing' to fall asleep - then I get to do something interesting! Lately I've had some success in making a game of cultivating enjoyable, productive thoughts while I lie there unable to fall asleep, rather than indulging in the usual anxious worry / regret cycle.

207 points by EndXA 3y ago

I have another name for that: Refusal to Concede. Before fall asleep, I still have a chance to do something great with my life. After, it's officially another wasted day.

koz_ 3y ago
Love this. How much suffering have I inflicted on myself from the sheer refusal to accept that forces other than my own will play a part in determining my destiny?
wiseowise 3y ago
That’s not Refusal to Concede. That’s conceding completely. By taking time out of your sleep you’re officially conceding that you can’t fight forces that impose this onto you, so you’re going to take it onto “you time”.

boh 3y ago

When you're in bed and about to sleep you have the most control of your attention. You're not on your phone, no one is trying to talk to you. The most access most people have of their attention is right before bed. Things like self-awareness, worry, ambition, memories that might've been ignored all day, are all of a sudden in the foreground of our perception, and a person finds themselves actually thinking rather than just reacting to stimuli.

bmc7505 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_buying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_buying

Aerbil313 3y ago

> …so they can feel that they have some control of their schedule. This is wrong. As a bedtime procrastinator myself, I believe it’s caused almost entirely by smartphones. Maybe read some Jonathan Haidt.

mnemotronic 3y ago

I didn't understand what this was from the title, but as soon as I read the explanation I felt like the authors had been studying me. I don't need to explain or rationalize what I'm doing here -- I am doing it, consciously, intentionally while knowing the lack of sleep is bad for me. It's kinda like smoking -- suicide for control freaks.

graposaymaname 3y ago

Thanks for putting a name on this. I’ve been suffering from this for a long time(and occasionally still do), but have started leaving my phone farther away and it has significantly improved. A part of me still feels that the sense of control and freedom which you get during the night is unparalleled.

yamrzou 3y ago

> However, note that the activities that people engage in during revenge bedtime procrastination aren’t necessarily enjoyable, and the procrastinator may engage with them simply out of a desire to feel in control. These attempts are an instance of the neurotic paradox[1], and keep repeating themselves because the desire to feel in control is never completely fulfilled. A repetition compulsion happens when unresolved conflicts continue to generate attempts at solutions which do not really work ... until a genuine solution is found. [2] [1] When an individual's way of coping with unconscious concerns creates even more problems in that individual's life. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetition_compulsion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetition_compulsion

rychco 3y ago

I’ve had a bad habit of doing this for years. I’ve recently tried to fix it but am struggling to let myself sleep & ‘waste’ the rest of the night. It’s exactly as the article suggests, I do it because I feel like my life has no personal time/privacy otherwise.

alluro2 3y ago
Exactly the same, and "wasting" the time is the same sentiment I have. It means I get ~5h of sleep normally, and most of the activities I do in that time are what Tim Urban (in TED talk, "Inside the mind of a procrastinator", which is excellent) calls "Dark Playground" - something I next morning feel at least a bit guilty for spending time on. For the last couple of days, during some workshops, I've slept for ~9h a day, and difference in my mential acuity today vs otherwise is impossible to deny / wave away...
aceazzameen 3y ago
Exactly the same for me. I subconsciously try to fight the sleep from my eyes while trying to do any activity that won't make me feel like I wasted the evening. And sometimes I have to yell at myself in my head just to go to bed when my eyes are already half closed. I don't know how to stop this habit. Maybe knowing there's a name and that it happens to other people might help me catch myself.

sleepworkasap 3y ago

Charitable take: Revenge procrastination is, as the article says, a symptom of poor emotional regulation. Our emotions push us towards having leisure/entertainment 24/7 but that is obviously not healthy even for the financially independent. Simultaneously, there is an ever-expanding universe of things to experience/study/engage with so there will always be reasons to feel that your obligations are causing you to miss out on life. So the emotional regulation is about accepting that you won't be able to do everything in life and making conscious decisions and sacrifices about what is important to you. Uncharitable take: Any article about revenge procrastination that doesn't include a call to action about legislating massive PTO minimums or a 30-hour workweek is an element of the ongoing class war. Convince labor that their struggles are internal and they'll never organize against you. That there is little political will to expand workers' rights or benefits suggests that capital is in a dominating position in the battlefield of public opinion. >How to avoid revenge bedtime procrastination >... >Think about—and potentially write down—how this behavior harms you. As always, the truth is somewhere in-between.

lamontcg 3y ago
> massive PTO minimums or a 30-hour workweek and WFH. i stopped staying up until 3am+ and coming into work dead tired when i started WFH full time. still didn't cure all my insomnia issues, but stopped the entirely self-inflicted ones.
mablopoule 3y ago
Yeah, I'm not for mindless consumption of social media designed to make you addicted, but this article really feels like the medicalization of what would be described before as a slave revolt. Playfulness isn't even a basic human traits, it's an animal trait, and yet the lack of any consideration in this article on whether the work/life balance might truly be unhealthy and people just need a breather sometimes, this feels truly sociopathic.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
  It's because they're trying to sell the reader their services. If it's a solvable medical problem then these guys can help, for a fee.

kingkongjaffa 3y ago

I did this a lot this year, usually until 3am every night. I’m a remote worker who works and games at the same desk and chair. Often I would lie to myself about being productive and then quit a tutorial after a few minutes and load up a game instead. I found I stopped since about September, mainly by telling myself nothing really productive happens after 11pm and to just go to bed.

bentcorner 3y ago
> Often I would lie to myself about being productive and then quit a tutorial after a few minutes and load up a game instead. I struggled with this exact thing. For me personally I was able to focus better by dual-booting my machine so that my personal desktop/storage/workspace was distinct from my work stuff. Currently I have a work laptop I use on the same desk and I turn off my personal machine during the work day.

The_Colonel 3y ago

Framing it is a revenge doesn't make sense for me. It's more like I'm asserting myself as a real person with interests, not just obligation fulfillment machine.

wiseowise 3y ago
Asserting against whom? Your sleep?
- StimDeck 3y ago
  Do you have some monetary interest the sufferers in this thread seeking vengeance? In this and other comments you are antagonizing people who take exception to the connotations of the English word revenge being part of the title. If you feel like it’s revenge in your case, great, please leave the rest of us alone.
atleastoptimal 3y ago
Revenge makes sense for me as I feel I'm "getting back" at the circumstances of my life for taking time away from me
otikik 3y ago
I think it’s because it was translated from a Chinese expression. Probably the original had different nuances.

kd5bjo 3y ago

I take some issue with the "revenge" terminology, as it implies an unhealthy adversarial framing of the problem. Whenever I have had to deal with this myself, I've always chosen to view it as my subconscious prioritizing some kind of emotional need over my need for sleep. Viewed that way, the solution is obvious: Identify the emotional need that I've been neglecting and figure out how to satisfy it during the normal course of my day/week. Like most simple and obvious solutions, however, putting it into practice can sometimes be quite difficult.

wiseowise 3y ago
Lack of sleep is literally unhealthy.
- ZeroSolstice 3y ago
  Can you expand on your definition of "lack of sleep"? Since sleep is something that isn't uniformly measurable and is both relative and subjective to the individual what are you measuring to consider it lacking? Sleep doesn't really work in the realm of arithmetic and there is no way to credit extra sleep because you slept in on Saturday so how can you "lack" sleep because you stayed up longer one night verse the previous night? What if you did an extra exercise that day are you now lacking sleep because you exerted yourself more?
- kd5bjo 3y ago
  So it is, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But Hanlon's razor says that we should explore the explanation that people (or their subconscious) are incompetent at satisfying this need before moving on to the theory that they're doing it out of spite.
  - ZeroSolstice 3y ago
    I agree with your point here. It is unclear to me how "lack of sleep" was derived from your initial comment. I'm hoping wiseowise can expand upon their mostly generic comment to clear the confusion.

zemvpferreira 3y ago

Not to dimish the problem but to add my own experience, consider that a delayed sleep onset can be confused with bedtime procrastination. My circadian rythm tends to 25-26 hours. Every day I feel sleepy 2 hours later than the day before. That means every day I'm tempted to delay my bedtime by 2 hours because I don't feel sleepy at all. For the longest time I though the my difficulty falling asleep was habitual/emotional/hygienic. After a decade of experimentation with caffeine, lighting, food, meditation, journaling, restricted sleep etc etc etc the best solution for me by far has been a low-dose melatonin supplement one hour before my desired bedtime. As long as I do that I hardly ever stay up longer than I should, and go to sleep immediately. Food for thought if you have chronic trouble falling asleep and don't feel like there's anything terribly 'off' about your habits. (If I'm anxious/stressed I still sleep badly)

Obscurity4340 3y ago
You "listen" to anything or silence?
- zemvpferreira 3y ago
  On melatonin? I'm on YouTube until my head is too heavy to hold up (a novel experience). Off melatonin? I tried silence among other things but it just makes me either bored or anxious. No way to spend 5-10% of your day.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    U ever tried listening to an anchor piece or book that you listen to every night ritualistically? I feel like it works equally well for children and adults. Everyone loves a story they've heard a million times that tells their body implicitly its time for nighty bye bye :) Edit: also, you ever try cutting the visual so there's only audio? Try it and report back ;)
    - zemvpferreira 3y ago
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Xcelerate 3y ago

Since having children, this “revenge procrastination” has switched from late night to early morning as I typically fall asleep by 9 PM now. Imagine setting an alarm for 4 AM just to have some time for yourself in the morning. I wouldn’t call it wasted time though. I’m typically learning about machine learning or something.

Tade0 3y ago
This was my way of making time for my stuff without disturbing my sleep schedule as a parent. The philosophy basically is: do I want to do it bad enough to wake up early? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I learned a thing or about myself in the process.

swimwiththebeat 3y ago

It’s amazing how much attaching a name to some phenomenon or problem and discussing it helps in understanding it and taking the first steps to address it. Knowing that bedtime procrastination is a real thing that affects others not only gives me comfort, but also helps me think about it very consciously and figure out how to take the first steps to solve it. I never thought about it from the revenge and agency perspective, but I appreciate the author at least trying to hypothesize why people do this despite it being detrimental. All the suggestions and tips in the article are also incredibly helpful.

dredmorbius 3y ago
Ideas, both names and concepts, are interfaces. They are useful, though they are also limited in the sense both that the label is not the thing (the map is not the terrain), and that simply having a name for a thing is not the same as having a deep understanding for it, though having a language for discussing the thing can itself help substantially in achieving that understanding. It can also lead to cargo-cult or fad-based ("buzzword bingo") aping, however, and you want to be on the watch for that. Feynman illustrates the distinction between naming and knowing in an lecture (I believe also appearing as an essay in one of his books): See that bird? It’s a brown-throated thrush, but in Germany it’s called a Halzenfugel, and in Chinese they call it a Chung Ling and even if you know all those names for it, you still know nothing about the bird. You only know something about people; what they call the bird. Now that thrush sings, and teaches its young to fly, and flies so many miles away during the summer across the country, and nobody knows how it finds its way. <http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/what_is_science.html http://www.fotuva.org/feynman/what_is_science.html> I find Feynman a bit too dismissive of the value of shared terminology, though his broader point has merits.
otikik 3y ago
Names are important. One of the most important things, perhaps. It conditions how we think. For example, the denomination “fiscal paradise” could have been “tax evasion den” instead.
extragood 3y ago
I had a similar revelation at work recently. I've lead a team for the past several years. Our productivity and the quality of the work never was never questioned for the first ~4 years. We consistently met or exceeded expectations, and everyone was happy. In the past year of belt tightening, my leadership and methods have come under scrutiny by our executives. I've spent many hours defending my decisions, especially team structure. The thing which finally got them (mostly) off my back was sharing the name of the methodology that most resembled what I had built. Suddenly my explanations check out. While I'm happy to have a lot of that pressure relieved, it's also been a frustrating experience. My credibility relied on someone else giving a name to a methodology that I devised independently, and that was more important than any of the results of the previous 4 years.

elynde 3y ago

Bedtime procrastination is my kryptonite. Every other habit like working hard, exercising, eating right I do well at but can't fix this. I've battled with it my whole life. Even as a toddler I would stay up late reading in secret. There is just something about the stillness when everyone else is asleep where I feel like my brain can finally wind down/process the day/kick back and relax. Anyone else struggled so badly and fixed it? How?

fatnoah 3y ago
I've struggled since that age as well. I have good periods and bad periods, but I still can't really get to sleep unless I've had an hour of "quiet house" time. I did the same thing, BTW. I'd stay up and read, complete school workbooks ahead of time, etc.
nunez 3y ago
I bedtime procrastinated pretty badly. CBT-I helped a lot. It forces you to skip to a schedule. The schedule is completely set around the time that you want to get up. Or at least it forced me to; I was paying $300/mo for the privilege! Quitting Reddit helped a lot too. I wouldn't have done this had their leadership team decided to go hostile with their API access, but they did, so i did. It's been a great time-regainer. I didn't realize until after I left (and using this site more) that Reddit was designed to be a textual version of the same hooks that keep people glued to social media, which I quit almost entirely years back for the same reason. (New Reddit does infinite scroll by default, with no way of turning it off, along with boosting chats, de-emphasizing multireddits in favor of subscribed reddits, tweaks their front page to maximize engagement, rewards short, quippy posts regardless of substance, and more. I still browse Reddit through Google for finding local restaurants and things to do, but I'm enjoying that while I can until I have to trudge through TripAdvisor or city-data.) These days, I fall asleep within 15 mins of hitting the bed and wake up between 0530-0700 without an alarm feeling refreshed on most days.
- elynde 3y ago
  Didn’t realize CBT-I was also for bedtime procrastination (vs just insomnia). Would love to hear more about this.

cortesoft 3y ago

As a parent of young children, the only alternative is to completely give up any personal time. If I go to bed when the kids go to bed, I have zero time for any of my own hobbies. I just don’t think I am willing to do that.

tkiolp4 3y ago

Perhaps off topic: if I go to sleep at 10pm (something I never do, except if I have to wake up very early for whatever reason) and wake up at 6am, I feel like crap. Very sleepy and it takes me a couple of hours to be fully awake. Those 8h don’t feel the same as when I sleep from 1am to 9am, for example (my regular sleeping time).

crise1221 3y ago
I think that might have to do with your body clock and schedule. As you said, those are your "regular" sleeping times. If you start to consistently go to bed at 10pm and make that "regular", you'll get the same quality of sleep as with your current schedule. But, ultimately, if 1am to 9am works for you and there are no major negative effects to your life, I wouldn't think there is anything wrong with continuing to keep that schedule.

aaron695 3y ago

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CowOfKrakatoa 3y ago

Haven't read the comments, but I have something to contribute. I am married and a parent of a 1.5-year-old child. Employed at a full-time job, working out is something I consider mandatory. Adding all this together, plus household chores, it leaves little time for personal projects or just chilling out by myself. I used to stay up late to get some alone time, but as the article describes, it is not sustainable, especially for parents. I had a project I wanted to work on, but it was difficult to focus at night after everything else was taken care of. So I flipped it. I started waking up early. I aim for 5 am; recently, it's been more like 6 am, but I've been thinking of trying out 4 am. I've never been a morning person, but you do get used to it after a few weeks. Now, I use the fresh morning energy to work on my side project, and from the moment my daughter wakes up, I start with all the responsibilities. I work out in the evening, and I don't dread going to sleep early because I wake up to my time. So, the earlier I get to bed, the more "me" time I get.

zemvpferreira 3y ago
One of the times in my life I got along the best with little sleep was when I woke up before dawn to go surfing. I still went to bed after midnight, but the excitement of going into the ocean got me out of bed quick as lightning. There's something to that idea for sure.
nunez 3y ago
I've started doing this as well this year, waking between 0530 and 0700. I work out within an hour of getting up. I'm usually ready for work between 0930 and 1030. It required a LOT of training (I am not, historically, a morning person) but I have been super consistent with it for the last few months. On a plus side, I can get up without an alarm now on a consistent basis. On the minus side, I now get super sleepy at 2200, which makes hanging out late very difficult. The alternative was starting work when I got up, but the flipside to this was my workouts getting on super late if I got hit with a late meeting. I still work out like this while I'm traveling. It usually means I have to skip on team dinner, which sucks.
doubled112 3y ago
This probably would work for most but mine tried to kill me. My oldest had a stretch where 5:30am was his normal, natural wake up time. By stretch I mean I think he was 6 or 7 and finally grew out of it. Alright I’m ready. Let’s go! I’m usually a 7-8am until to 12-1am kind of person, so that was tough.

MichaelRo 3y ago

Actually I do the "two sleeps" routine, particularly since I read about it and found out it's not something broken with me but it's (was) rather the normal way to sleep. After the evening meal and a little screen time I'm starting to feel very sleepy and a bit annoyed because I would like to do more activity but it becomes uncomfortable and unpleasant to fight biology. So I turn off the light and put myself in bed with the full intention of sleeping all night if so happens to be, but not opposed to wake up again if also, it happens. More often than not after 1-2 hours of nap, I wake up feeling refreshed so I turn on the light and screens (TV, phone, computer) and do more leisure stuff. Not gaming, which pumps the wrong hormones and will make it hard to go to sleep again. Browsing the net, listening to music, watching another episode from the many comedy series I started... 1-2 hours later I feel sleepy again and this time it's for good, lasts till morning. Even if I wakeup (and I do wake up 1-2 times during the night to hit the bathroom), I'm very drowsy. Half asleep make it to the bathroom cursing the weak bladder then crawl back in my bed and 5 minutes later I'm already dreaming.

DenisM 3y ago

One thing that might help a little is listening to a podcast while falling asleep. You’re doing something enjoyable that doesn’t disrupt your sleep schedule.

simmschi 3y ago

This behavior is probably pretty normal for anyone with a job, family and kids. I wouldn't associate it with 'revenge' though. For me 2 things help with the sleep deprivation, power naps and going to bed super early once in a while. Power naps started working for me nicely once I removed the stressful requirement of actually having to sleep. I just set my phone timer for 20 minutes and allow my mind to float away. Just hitting sleep for a few minutes this way is super helpful and refreshing. And 20 mins you can easily sneak in even into a work day, or when coming home from work. The going to bed super early is just me crashing once in a while. Sleep deprivation accumulates and for the sake of my health I just let my body crash at 7pm. Happens maybe once a month.

koz_ 3y ago
> Power naps started working for me nicely once I removed the stressful requirement of actually having to sleep. This is a lesson I keep having to relearn, that rest without sleep is still beneficial. And of course there's always a reward for 'failing' to fall asleep - then I get to do something interesting! Lately I've had some success in making a game of cultivating enjoyable, productive thoughts while I lie there unable to fall asleep, rather than indulging in the usual anxious worry / regret cycle.