3 ms·

No. If we designed everything around its “bodge together in a pinch factor” we wouldn’t have technology let alone industry. It’s just not realistic or practical

by dcow 3y ago

No. If we designed everything around its “bodge together in a pinch factor” we wouldn’t have technology let alone industry. It’s just not realistic or practical to live in the past and I do not believe it would be oppressive to ask people who still have a use for type A to buy a $5 adapter. Also the type C connector retains the exact pins you need to use it in 2.0 mode, they’re just smaller. Literally all these adapters do is connect type A pins to type C pins and add a 56kOhm resistor. The real reason is bandwidth.

nine_k 3y ago
Still we live with power sockets and lamp sockets that hark back to Edison times, more than a century ago, and live relatively happily. Backwards compatibility with millions (and hundreds of millions) of existing devices is a powerful force. While I'm in favor of USB-C connector eventually replacing USB-A connector completely, I think it's best done gradually, with new devices still offering the occasional USB-A socket for quite some time. Remember how slowly PS/2 ports disappeared from PCs which also featured USB sockets next to them, or how PCI and PCIe coexisted for many years on PC motherboards.
- userbinator 3y ago
  New mobos still have PS/2, especially the higher-end ones. Edit: don't believe me? https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z790-AORUS-TACHYON-rev-10/sp https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z790-AORUS-TACHYON-rev-... 1 x PS/2 keyboard port 1 x PS/2 mouse port
  - w4f7z 3y ago
    IIRC PS/2 ports are actually an extreme overclocking feature as they are more likely to continue to function at borderline stable clocks.
  - kiririn 3y ago
    And long may it last, there is no way to truly replicate a ps/2 port/header with adapters etc Hopefully if they ever go away for good someone makes a pcie ps/2 card with proper interrupts (if that is even possible behind abstractions like MSI) rather than converting ps/2 to usb
- philistine 3y ago
  Yeah but I'd still argue PC manufacturers have it backwards. Offering 1 or 2 USB-C ports and 4 USB-A ports is the wrong ratio. The Mac Pro has it right: 2 USB-A ports in the front, one inside for software keys, and 8 Thunderbolt 4 ports for truly insane speeds impossible to achieve with an A plug.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    The reason may be the cost. Four insane-speed ports, especially with DisplayPort routed to all of them, take more resources, more expensive chips, and trickier PCB routing. My Thinkpad T14 has one USB-C port which works best for charging (also handles Ethernet and slow-speed stuff), and another that works best with an external 4K display. All else is USB-A. But I bought it for $500 used. A used Mac Pro 2019 is like $2500, to say nothing about a new one.
- dcow 3y ago
  To my knowledge there haven’t been any recent leaps and bounds advances in electrical socket technology where a bunch of 200 year old houses are the only thing holding us back. Early on maybe 8 or nine years ago I would have made a similar argument as you are now, but it’s been quite awhile even mice and keyboards come standard with usbc now.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    I can imagine a much nicer power socket, symmetrical, more safe, always grounded, smaller than the Euro socket. But it has no chance to take over the world, which is dominated by either the Edison's or Siemens's (I suppose) early designs.
jstanley 3y ago
> people who still have a use for type A Isn't this basically everyone? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen something that plugs into type C and it's not either a phone charger or a type A adapter.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  > I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen something that plugs into type C and it's not either a phone charger or a type A adapter. By way of comparison, my experience is basically the opposite. Most of USB devices I have attached to my computers are USB-C - my keyboard, local backup disks and non-perf critical mass storage, my yubikeys, one of my monitors, network dongles. Most of the USB-A things I have around are for recharging stuff, plus old external disks I keep out of paranoia, and, things like my car's ports for connecting my phone for CarPlay. The last one is something that annoys me about the EU's insistence on USB-C for phones. I had a bunch of perfectly serviceable USB-A to lightning cables to discard because the connectors have changed for no benefit to me. It seemed driven more by dogmatism than any practical advantages in real life. None of the shit I need to plug the phone into changed their connectors, so I just need to replace cables for no good reason.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    > I had a bunch of perfectly serviceable USB-A to lightning cables to discard Can't you just give them to the person who is inheriting/buying your previous phone?
    - jen20 3y ago
      The word “discard” does not preclude what you suggested.
jojobas 3y ago
I still have plenty USB-A/B devices and I'd rather not buy a new cable for each of them. Ain't broke, don't fix it. They will fade away eventually.
- dcow 3y ago
  You don’t have to but a new cable for each one. 7-Port USB 3.0 Hub: https://a.co/d/aRru1K1 https://a.co/d/aRru1K1
  - jojobas 3y ago
    This hub sounds so convenient that maybe, just maybe, some genius had an idea to incorporate it into the motherboard?
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
> ...people who still have a use for type A to buy a $5 adapter I have literally tens of devices with usb A to usb B/mini/micro etc. cables, and only a few that have usb C, and even most of those came with a usb A -> usb C cable. USB A is far from dead and should stay... I don't want to live in an "apple-like world", where you need an adapter for everything that should be included directly in the first place (lika an USB A port!!). And I already have to buy a serial (rs232) adapter, because they removed it for no real reason.
- cesarb 3y ago
  > And I already have to buy a serial (rs232) adapter, because they removed it for no real reason. RS-232 is a pain, it's one of the few users of negative voltages on a PC (others being ISA cards and PCI cards; PCI Express finally removed the last negative voltage pin), and the input needs to be tolerant of any voltage between -25V and +25V. I can see why computer manufacturers would love to not have to deal with it anymore.
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    And somehow a usb->rs232 adapter can handle all that, including negative voltages and costs less than $5, and a max232 chip for less than $1.
- dcow 3y ago
  The type C port is superior to and entirely backwards compatible with, the type A port. For your 10s of devices with type A, just get one of these: 7-Port USB 3.0 Hub with 19.7 Inch Cable, ORICO Ultra-Slim Data USB Splitter https://a.co/d/aRru1K1 https://a.co/d/aRru1K1 It’s way better than plugging every device into the back of your PC anyway.
deleted 3y ago
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by dcow 3y ago

nine_k 3y ago

Still we live with power sockets and lamp sockets that hark back to Edison times, more than a century ago, and live relatively happily. Backwards compatibility with millions (and hundreds of millions) of existing devices is a powerful force. While I'm in favor of USB-C connector eventually replacing USB-A connector completely, I think it's best done gradually, with new devices still offering the occasional USB-A socket for quite some time. Remember how slowly PS/2 ports disappeared from PCs which also featured USB sockets next to them, or how PCI and PCIe coexisted for many years on PC motherboards.

userbinator 3y ago
New mobos still have PS/2, especially the higher-end ones. Edit: don't believe me? https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z790-AORUS-TACHYON-rev-10/sp https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z790-AORUS-TACHYON-rev-... 1 x PS/2 keyboard port 1 x PS/2 mouse port
- w4f7z 3y ago
  IIRC PS/2 ports are actually an extreme overclocking feature as they are more likely to continue to function at borderline stable clocks.
- kiririn 3y ago
  And long may it last, there is no way to truly replicate a ps/2 port/header with adapters etc Hopefully if they ever go away for good someone makes a pcie ps/2 card with proper interrupts (if that is even possible behind abstractions like MSI) rather than converting ps/2 to usb
philistine 3y ago
Yeah but I'd still argue PC manufacturers have it backwards. Offering 1 or 2 USB-C ports and 4 USB-A ports is the wrong ratio. The Mac Pro has it right: 2 USB-A ports in the front, one inside for software keys, and 8 Thunderbolt 4 ports for truly insane speeds impossible to achieve with an A plug.
- nine_k 3y ago
  The reason may be the cost. Four insane-speed ports, especially with DisplayPort routed to all of them, take more resources, more expensive chips, and trickier PCB routing. My Thinkpad T14 has one USB-C port which works best for charging (also handles Ethernet and slow-speed stuff), and another that works best with an external 4K display. All else is USB-A. But I bought it for $500 used. A used Mac Pro 2019 is like $2500, to say nothing about a new one.
dcow 3y ago
To my knowledge there haven’t been any recent leaps and bounds advances in electrical socket technology where a bunch of 200 year old houses are the only thing holding us back. Early on maybe 8 or nine years ago I would have made a similar argument as you are now, but it’s been quite awhile even mice and keyboards come standard with usbc now.
- nine_k 3y ago
  I can imagine a much nicer power socket, symmetrical, more safe, always grounded, smaller than the Euro socket. But it has no chance to take over the world, which is dominated by either the Edison's or Siemens's (I suppose) early designs.

jstanley 3y ago

> people who still have a use for type A Isn't this basically everyone? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen something that plugs into type C and it's not either a phone charger or a type A adapter.

meepmorp 3y ago
> I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen something that plugs into type C and it's not either a phone charger or a type A adapter. By way of comparison, my experience is basically the opposite. Most of USB devices I have attached to my computers are USB-C - my keyboard, local backup disks and non-perf critical mass storage, my yubikeys, one of my monitors, network dongles. Most of the USB-A things I have around are for recharging stuff, plus old external disks I keep out of paranoia, and, things like my car's ports for connecting my phone for CarPlay. The last one is something that annoys me about the EU's insistence on USB-C for phones. I had a bunch of perfectly serviceable USB-A to lightning cables to discard because the connectors have changed for no benefit to me. It seemed driven more by dogmatism than any practical advantages in real life. None of the shit I need to plug the phone into changed their connectors, so I just need to replace cables for no good reason.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  > I had a bunch of perfectly serviceable USB-A to lightning cables to discard Can't you just give them to the person who is inheriting/buying your previous phone?
  - jen20 3y ago
    The word “discard” does not preclude what you suggested.

jojobas 3y ago

I still have plenty USB-A/B devices and I'd rather not buy a new cable for each of them. Ain't broke, don't fix it. They will fade away eventually.

dcow 3y ago
You don’t have to but a new cable for each one. 7-Port USB 3.0 Hub: https://a.co/d/aRru1K1 https://a.co/d/aRru1K1
- jojobas 3y ago
  This hub sounds so convenient that maybe, just maybe, some genius had an idea to incorporate it into the motherboard?

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

> ...people who still have a use for type A to buy a $5 adapter I have literally tens of devices with usb A to usb B/mini/micro etc. cables, and only a few that have usb C, and even most of those came with a usb A -> usb C cable. USB A is far from dead and should stay... I don't want to live in an "apple-like world", where you need an adapter for everything that should be included directly in the first place (lika an USB A port!!). And I already have to buy a serial (rs232) adapter, because they removed it for no real reason.

cesarb 3y ago
> And I already have to buy a serial (rs232) adapter, because they removed it for no real reason. RS-232 is a pain, it's one of the few users of negative voltages on a PC (others being ISA cards and PCI cards; PCI Express finally removed the last negative voltage pin), and the input needs to be tolerant of any voltage between -25V and +25V. I can see why computer manufacturers would love to not have to deal with it anymore.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  And somehow a usb->rs232 adapter can handle all that, including negative voltages and costs less than $5, and a max232 chip for less than $1.
dcow 3y ago
The type C port is superior to and entirely backwards compatible with, the type A port. For your 10s of devices with type A, just get one of these: 7-Port USB 3.0 Hub with 19.7 Inch Cable, ORICO Ultra-Slim Data USB Splitter https://a.co/d/aRru1K1 https://a.co/d/aRru1K1 It’s way better than plugging every device into the back of your PC anyway.

deleted 3y ago

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