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>unwilling This is something that comes up so often, particularly in the past few years, and I'm surprised at how little push back there is. It's not that peop

>unwilling This is something that comes up so often, particularly in the past few years, and I'm surprised at how little push back there is. It's not that people are unwilling. It's that the average American, in real terms, is increasingly broke. Any number of businesses would have collapsed in the last 20-30 years - music, selling physical albums; cable TV, with reasonable bills; air travel, without security theater and sardine can booking - if not for ad-supported revenue, all-you-can-eat subscriptions, and/or barebones service. And that's because most Americans don't have the disposable income to actually buy and own things anymore. What I'll give is that it's been such a slow boil that I don't think people realized it before. But now that even basics - food, housing, transportation, education - are unattainable or warped to where the customer is the product or degraded to the point of being unrecognizable, there's really no excuse anymore.

mistrial9 3y ago
good with the flow there, US here and agree > most Americans don't have the disposable income odd formulas since lots of common urban addictions use up money, and lots of incarcerated cant buy things directly. Not an economist here, but I think of it like "circulation" in a body.. there are cold spots and overheated spots, not evenly flowing. Commerce in this US West location is not at all as it was before the ubiquitous phone, that is for certain.
- underlipton 3y ago
  Inequality is absolutely part of what's masking things, yeah. And, yes, we've found cheaper and more efficient ways of doing things via ubiquitous connectivity and compute. Weirdly, the cost savings never really bolstered individual savings.
gruez 3y ago
>It's that the average American, in real terms, is increasingly broke. AFAIK inflation adjusted wages have been creeping up in the last decade, or at least remained flat. What statistics support the claim that they're "increasingly broke"?
- jrajav 3y ago
  That is incorrect. They are at their lowest point in 75 years: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1065466/real-nominal-value-minimum-wage-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1065466/real-nominal-val... There is also deeper nuance to consider, like the fact that essential goods such as grocery items have been inflating much faster than other markets, especially in most recent years.
  - creato 3y ago
    Parent was talking about wages in general, your chart is for the federal minimum wage.
    - jrajav 3y ago
      You're right, I missed that in haste. I do think it's still worthwhile to consider the minimum wage since it applies direct upward pressure on other hourly wages, and the question is "how many Americans are effectively broke." The purchasing power of the absolute average American doesn't really answer that question with growing wealth inequality.
      - gruez 3y ago
        >You're right, I missed that in haste. I do think it's still worthwhile to consider the minimum wage since it applies direct upward pressure on other hourly wages That's all true, but is there any reason why we should take the minimum wage seriously when we have median wage data, and only 1.5% of Americans are on the federal minimum wage? Clearly it's not a representative number at all. https://www.zippia.com/advice/minimum-wage-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/minimum-wage-statistics/ >the question is "how many Americans are effectively broke." The purchasing power of the absolute average American doesn't really answer that question with growing wealth inequality. Why don't you present your statistics then? Also, "broke" =/= "wealth inequality", unless you subscribe to the view that living in 1400s like conditions is not "broke" if everyone else is also equally poor.
creato 3y ago
Americans have the second highest median disposable income in the world (after Luxemborg), adjusted for PPP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c... I know your claims are generally accepted fact. Where is the disconnect?
- some_furry 3y ago
  Landlords. Medical debt. Prices have inflated for decades. Minimum wage has stagnated.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    Friendly reminder that "inflation" more or less definitionally implies that wages increase proportionally to consumer goods prices. If prices are going up and wages aren't, it's just people getting proportionally poorer.
    - some_furry 3y ago
      Costs have inflated, wages have not.
      - gruez 3y ago
        They have, though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38325650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38325650
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        There is a psychological effect in that price rises are perceived as inflation while wage increases are seen as personally earned. So even though real wages are going up, at the individual level, they're not seen as being macro-economically driven.
- nerdponx 3y ago

mistrial9 3y ago

good with the flow there, US here and agree > most Americans don't have the disposable income odd formulas since lots of common urban addictions use up money, and lots of incarcerated cant buy things directly. Not an economist here, but I think of it like "circulation" in a body.. there are cold spots and overheated spots, not evenly flowing. Commerce in this US West location is not at all as it was before the ubiquitous phone, that is for certain.

underlipton 3y ago
Inequality is absolutely part of what's masking things, yeah. And, yes, we've found cheaper and more efficient ways of doing things via ubiquitous connectivity and compute. Weirdly, the cost savings never really bolstered individual savings.

gruez 3y ago

>It's that the average American, in real terms, is increasingly broke. AFAIK inflation adjusted wages have been creeping up in the last decade, or at least remained flat. What statistics support the claim that they're "increasingly broke"?

jrajav 3y ago
That is incorrect. They are at their lowest point in 75 years: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1065466/real-nominal-value-minimum-wage-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1065466/real-nominal-val... There is also deeper nuance to consider, like the fact that essential goods such as grocery items have been inflating much faster than other markets, especially in most recent years.
- creato 3y ago
  Parent was talking about wages in general, your chart is for the federal minimum wage.
  - jrajav 3y ago
    You're right, I missed that in haste. I do think it's still worthwhile to consider the minimum wage since it applies direct upward pressure on other hourly wages, and the question is "how many Americans are effectively broke." The purchasing power of the absolute average American doesn't really answer that question with growing wealth inequality.
    - gruez 3y ago
      >You're right, I missed that in haste. I do think it's still worthwhile to consider the minimum wage since it applies direct upward pressure on other hourly wages That's all true, but is there any reason why we should take the minimum wage seriously when we have median wage data, and only 1.5% of Americans are on the federal minimum wage? Clearly it's not a representative number at all. https://www.zippia.com/advice/minimum-wage-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/minimum-wage-statistics/ >the question is "how many Americans are effectively broke." The purchasing power of the absolute average American doesn't really answer that question with growing wealth inequality. Why don't you present your statistics then? Also, "broke" =/= "wealth inequality", unless you subscribe to the view that living in 1400s like conditions is not "broke" if everyone else is also equally poor.

creato 3y ago

Americans have the second highest median disposable income in the world (after Luxemborg), adjusted for PPP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c... I know your claims are generally accepted fact. Where is the disconnect?

some_furry 3y ago
Landlords. Medical debt. Prices have inflated for decades. Minimum wage has stagnated.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Friendly reminder that "inflation" more or less definitionally implies that wages increase proportionally to consumer goods prices. If prices are going up and wages aren't, it's just people getting proportionally poorer.
  - some_furry 3y ago
    Costs have inflated, wages have not.
    - gruez 3y ago
      They have, though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38325650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38325650
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        There is a psychological effect in that price rises are perceived as inflation while wage increases are seen as personally earned. So even though real wages are going up, at the individual level, they're not seen as being macro-economically driven.
nerdponx 3y ago