4 ms·

I think you're defining culture too narrowly. It's not just about wearing jeans or visiting nightclubs, it's about a shared perspective around religion, communi

by Maktab 18y ago

I think you're defining culture too narrowly. It's not just about wearing jeans or visiting nightclubs, it's about a shared perspective around religion, community interaction, concepts like freedom and responsibility and traditions. That kind of culture runs deep, very deep, which is part of the reason (for example) Pakistani immigrants are finding it so difficult to assimilate into the UK. They wear jeans, go to nightclubs and all the rest, but find it very difficult to break those cultural ties and perceptions. And yes, I'd argue that the same cultural flaws that make corruption acceptable in Africa are visible in Asian societies like India and China, though they are far less severe. Perhaps one could argue that they have a far more recent history of prolonged totalitarianism than the US or Western Europe; that with all the years of kings and Rajs, followed by colonialism (Mao's Communist Party in the case of China) and then socialist dictators there just has not yet been time to shift cultures enough. And I'm frequently in rural villages and settlements, yet the same cultural bias in favour of poor governance and corruption are just as visible there. Village chiefs and the heads of important families are allowed the most outrageous excesses simply by virtue of their rank and there is little anger when money gets skimmed off the top of funds coming from the outside, even when earmarked for development. I can't quite understand it. So yes, I do regard culture in some parts of the world as being a causal factor towards their countries' poor economic performance. I think economic success in this world requires a certain outlook on self interest, the shared good and work and that without that a country helps cause its own poverty. But I have no idea how to change it.

bocajuniors 18y ago
The main reason for the difficulties of Pakistanis to integrate into english society is that it is obvious for others that they are frpm Pakistan(or India) even if they have changed culturally. A person from the countryside of northern Sweden may be as culturally different as the Pakistani on arrival but after he has adjusted his culture and accent it's impossible to tell that he is not british.
markessien 18y ago
You're wrong, but I don't want to argue anymore. If you think that Africans have a genetic or cultural disposition towards corruption, then that is your opinion, and I'm not going to try to change it. I disagree completely, but trying to prove someone on the internet wrong is something I'd rather not spend my time on.
- Maktab 18y ago
  Not genetic, but cultural. The latter is fluid, though not as quick to change as you believe. Nevertheless, I think that African ideas, attitudes and cultures are changing for the better and I do have some optimism for the continent's future. Still, I agree that there's not much point in continuing this. We're both arguing from the perspectives obtained from personal observation, so chances are this wouldn't have gone anywhere useful in any case. But thanks for the discussion.
- quantumhobbit 18y ago
  It's not a genetic disposition to corruption but a tolerance developed through overexposure. When most cops are corrupt there is less outrage over one corrupt cop because that is normal. People learn to accept what is all around them. Part of culture is what is tolerated and what isn't. It's a Catch-22. The same thing can happen in the United States. Louisiana has a history of corruption mostly dating back to Huey Long but present before his term as governor (I grew up in Louisiana). Most voters accept it. It is assumed in every election that all the candidates are crooks. William Jefferson, who was caught with $90,000 dollars in bribes in his freezer, will continue to be reelected partly because voters don't expect better from other politicians. Alaska is different. It is a younger state with a less entrenched culture of corruption. Ted Stevens who was far more popular than William Jefferson lost a close race due to his convictions on corruption charges.
  - netcan 18y ago
    There's is also a feedback effect when it becomes so entrenched that everyone has participated in it. It's one thing to pay a bribe to a cop to avoid trouble. It's another to seek out someone to put a stamp on something so that you do ABC. When corruption is the system, most people reach that point. A large number of (basically decent) people also reach the point where they are actually accepting black money. That would definitely accelorate tolerance.
- jmatt 18y ago
  trying to prove someone on the internet wrong is something I'd rather not spend my time on. obligatory link... http://xkcd.com/386/ http://xkcd.com/386/

by Maktab 18y ago

bocajuniors 18y ago

The main reason for the difficulties of Pakistanis to integrate into english society is that it is obvious for others that they are frpm Pakistan(or India) even if they have changed culturally. A person from the countryside of northern Sweden may be as culturally different as the Pakistani on arrival but after he has adjusted his culture and accent it's impossible to tell that he is not british.

markessien 18y ago

You're wrong, but I don't want to argue anymore. If you think that Africans have a genetic or cultural disposition towards corruption, then that is your opinion, and I'm not going to try to change it. I disagree completely, but trying to prove someone on the internet wrong is something I'd rather not spend my time on.

Maktab 18y ago
Not genetic, but cultural. The latter is fluid, though not as quick to change as you believe. Nevertheless, I think that African ideas, attitudes and cultures are changing for the better and I do have some optimism for the continent's future. Still, I agree that there's not much point in continuing this. We're both arguing from the perspectives obtained from personal observation, so chances are this wouldn't have gone anywhere useful in any case. But thanks for the discussion.
quantumhobbit 18y ago
It's not a genetic disposition to corruption but a tolerance developed through overexposure. When most cops are corrupt there is less outrage over one corrupt cop because that is normal. People learn to accept what is all around them. Part of culture is what is tolerated and what isn't. It's a Catch-22. The same thing can happen in the United States. Louisiana has a history of corruption mostly dating back to Huey Long but present before his term as governor (I grew up in Louisiana). Most voters accept it. It is assumed in every election that all the candidates are crooks. William Jefferson, who was caught with $90,000 dollars in bribes in his freezer, will continue to be reelected partly because voters don't expect better from other politicians. Alaska is different. It is a younger state with a less entrenched culture of corruption. Ted Stevens who was far more popular than William Jefferson lost a close race due to his convictions on corruption charges.
- netcan 18y ago
  There's is also a feedback effect when it becomes so entrenched that everyone has participated in it. It's one thing to pay a bribe to a cop to avoid trouble. It's another to seek out someone to put a stamp on something so that you do ABC. When corruption is the system, most people reach that point. A large number of (basically decent) people also reach the point where they are actually accepting black money. That would definitely accelorate tolerance.
jmatt 18y ago
trying to prove someone on the internet wrong is something I'd rather not spend my time on. obligatory link... http://xkcd.com/386/ http://xkcd.com/386/