3 ms·

Serious wrongdoing with smoking gun would have been the only justification for the board acting the way they did. This reflects very poorly on the OpenAI board.

Serious wrongdoing with smoking gun would have been the only justification for the board acting the way they did. This reflects very poorly on the OpenAI board. And makes it more likely that this affair is far for complete.

fulladder 3y ago
Agree completely. Badmouthing someone as you fire them is immature, and would only be warranted in some kinds of very extreme circumstances, which this does not appear to be. I predict that this is the beginning of the end for OpenAI. The company won't collapse overnight or anything, but its best people will start leaving in January, then its average people will leave over the course of 2024, and there will be little left by 2025. They may have enough money to live on as a zombie company for several years after that, but everyone will know that it is no longer what it once was or could have been.
- intellectronica 3y ago
  That sounds very plausible. Another option is that as more information like this becomes public pressure will mount next week to restructure the board and the organisation and try to repair things.
  - intellectronica 3y ago
    Turns out we didn't have to wait for next week - that's what is already happening this weekend.
ansk 3y ago
One conceivable situation in which the board's behavior could be justified is if Ilya presented them with an urgent ultimatum: either Sam goes or I go. If the rift between Sam and Ilya was growing to the point that Ilya would rather leave the company than continue with Sam, it's a rational move for him to propose this. At this point the remainder of the board would be forced to make a decision as to whether Sam or Ilya is more vital to advancing OpenAI's mission. Choosing Ilya over Sam would certainly be a justifiable decision in such a scenario.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It would be unprecedented for a board to act in this way without proper reflection and consultation of various stakeholders. It seems all much too sudden and even though Ilya is an important person he does not by his lonesome overrule everybody else who has a stake in OpenAI and even if he did it could have - and should have - been handled more gracefully. If the board ended up acting rashly I expect the next thing to happen is that the board itself is exiled.
  - lompad 3y ago
    You keep claiming this across the entire thread, yet people explained to you dozens of times that the board is the ultimate arbiter over the nonprofit. They are not going to get ousted, unless they start killing people or anything like that. They all have enough money to be able to fight any legal challenges. This is not your regular, poor nonprofit paying slave wages. You always claim "precedent" - so please show me, when has the board of a nonprofit even close to as high profile as open AI ever been removed by external pressure? As far as I can tell, we're on entirely new territory here. I for one am glad Ilya is prevailing here - sama is the typical SV sociopath pushing growth at any cost. We really don't need any more of those guys at a place this important.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      You are apparently not up-to-date with the latest developments. Please go read the other thread. It is going pretty much according to the few ways in which it could go: lawsuit with unknown outcome (most probably by MSFT or other minority shareholder), reversal, board (or selected board members) resigns. The future timeline in which nothing changes and the board holds fast is not one that I think is viable, assuming Altman didn't murder anybody in broad daylight. And while I in principle agree with your character assessment (though I wouldn't put it in those terms, I'm not qualified to diagnose people to that degree) that still doesn't mean you can do what you can do in any way that you want to do it without consequences. The board forgot for a hot moment that they are first and foremost representatives of the stakeholders and govern accordingly. To oust one founder and cause another founder to walk you have to have grave reasons and solid support from all of the stakeholders. So far I have not seen these so the decision can't stand as it is. It's entirely possible that those grave reasons exist, and even then this should have been handled with some tact, not the blunt side of the axe.
jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, absolutely. If there is no serious smoking gun made public in the next couple of days OpenAI will be damaged beyond easy recovery.

fulladder 3y ago

Agree completely. Badmouthing someone as you fire them is immature, and would only be warranted in some kinds of very extreme circumstances, which this does not appear to be. I predict that this is the beginning of the end for OpenAI. The company won't collapse overnight or anything, but its best people will start leaving in January, then its average people will leave over the course of 2024, and there will be little left by 2025. They may have enough money to live on as a zombie company for several years after that, but everyone will know that it is no longer what it once was or could have been.

intellectronica 3y ago
That sounds very plausible. Another option is that as more information like this becomes public pressure will mount next week to restructure the board and the organisation and try to repair things.
- intellectronica 3y ago
  Turns out we didn't have to wait for next week - that's what is already happening this weekend.

ansk 3y ago

One conceivable situation in which the board's behavior could be justified is if Ilya presented them with an urgent ultimatum: either Sam goes or I go. If the rift between Sam and Ilya was growing to the point that Ilya would rather leave the company than continue with Sam, it's a rational move for him to propose this. At this point the remainder of the board would be forced to make a decision as to whether Sam or Ilya is more vital to advancing OpenAI's mission. Choosing Ilya over Sam would certainly be a justifiable decision in such a scenario.

jacquesm 3y ago
It would be unprecedented for a board to act in this way without proper reflection and consultation of various stakeholders. It seems all much too sudden and even though Ilya is an important person he does not by his lonesome overrule everybody else who has a stake in OpenAI and even if he did it could have - and should have - been handled more gracefully. If the board ended up acting rashly I expect the next thing to happen is that the board itself is exiled.
- lompad 3y ago
  You keep claiming this across the entire thread, yet people explained to you dozens of times that the board is the ultimate arbiter over the nonprofit. They are not going to get ousted, unless they start killing people or anything like that. They all have enough money to be able to fight any legal challenges. This is not your regular, poor nonprofit paying slave wages. You always claim "precedent" - so please show me, when has the board of a nonprofit even close to as high profile as open AI ever been removed by external pressure? As far as I can tell, we're on entirely new territory here. I for one am glad Ilya is prevailing here - sama is the typical SV sociopath pushing growth at any cost. We really don't need any more of those guys at a place this important.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    You are apparently not up-to-date with the latest developments. Please go read the other thread. It is going pretty much according to the few ways in which it could go: lawsuit with unknown outcome (most probably by MSFT or other minority shareholder), reversal, board (or selected board members) resigns. The future timeline in which nothing changes and the board holds fast is not one that I think is viable, assuming Altman didn't murder anybody in broad daylight. And while I in principle agree with your character assessment (though I wouldn't put it in those terms, I'm not qualified to diagnose people to that degree) that still doesn't mean you can do what you can do in any way that you want to do it without consequences. The board forgot for a hot moment that they are first and foremost representatives of the stakeholders and govern accordingly. To oust one founder and cause another founder to walk you have to have grave reasons and solid support from all of the stakeholders. So far I have not seen these so the decision can't stand as it is. It's entirely possible that those grave reasons exist, and even then this should have been handled with some tact, not the blunt side of the axe.

jacquesm 3y ago

Yes, absolutely. If there is no serious smoking gun made public in the next couple of days OpenAI will be damaged beyond easy recovery.