5 ms·

I wonder how much of tech's "gender divide" has to do with the way women in tech are reported? Take this article for example - it references the Akon song "Sex

I wonder how much of tech's "gender divide" has to do with the way women in tech are reported? Take this article for example - it references the Akon song "Sexy Bitch" in the title (yeah, real female empowerment there!), it doesn't mention a single female startup or founder, and the picture is a generic Flickr grab of a woman walking past a coffee shop in a short skirt. All of it, even the fact that the section is called "Ladybeat" serves to further this principle that there is a "Women's" tech ecosystem and it is somehow different from the male one. I mean "female-friendly fashion and beauty startups?" Come on.

granfalloon 15y ago
i agree with your main point, but saying that the title is a reference to Akon is a bit silly
unreal37 15y ago
I think you're trying to find a conspiracy where there is none. The lack of women in tech (and lack of women in science and math in general) starts at a very young age - while boys are immersed in video games and girls are having afternoon tea with their dolls. I doubt those 5-year-olds are influenced by the way women in tech are reported. Maybe society in general assigns gender roles that we all feel forced to comply with. Or maybe we're just different. Can't men and women just be a bit different?
- kristianc 15y ago
  Although boys have outperformed girls in exams in maths at 16 here in the UK for the last three years, girls had outperformed boys at maths for the decade before that. You're not arguing that men and women are "just a bit different" so much as you're arguing that people should conform to gender roles which don't necessarily apply. What about gay people in tech - Peter Thiel, Tim Cook, Ben Ling? Shouldn't they have been playing with Barbie dolls, or My Little Pony or whatever at a young age too?
  - burke 15y ago
    I think the takeaway here is that: yes, there is quite likely a societally-imposed suggestion that men should go into software and women should not; however, that it's not just Silicon Valley's fault, and that the genders are really groomed essentially from birth for what they're "supposed to" do.
  - unreal37 15y ago
    Oh, I can definitely believe girls outperform boys at math tests and even score higher on IQ tests. The question is interests. Why aren't they as interested in pursuing careers in those fields? Maybe we are just a bit different in that regard. And as for your theory on gay people in tech, I am not sure what you're saying. And not sure why you're even mentioning it actually.
    - vibrunazo 15y ago
      > The question is interests. The point they're trying to make is that you have very little evidence of that. Specially since girls of under 1 year old are already being surrounded with girly themes from their parents. They grow up being fed girly toys and mentality. Before a girl can even understand what a "toy" is, she is already surrounded by dolls in pink dresses. So it is really the girl's interests that differ from the boy's interests? Or is it their parent's interests being pushed to them? You don't know this, and you have absolutely no evidence to indicate that it's their born interest to like one thing over the other.
- iamgilesbowkett 15y ago
  "The lack of women in tech (and lack of women in science and math in general) starts at a very young age - while boys are immersed in video games and girls are having afternoon tea with their dolls. I doubt those 5-year-olds are influenced by the way women in tech are reported." I don't quite understand this. First, girls play video games. Everyone plays video games. Second, are you saying that portraying female founders in sexist terms is immaterial because whatever explains women being rare in tech has already taken effect after the age of 5? That would imply that sexism in media only merits attention at all if children 5 or under can see that media. I think that's pretty unlikely. And what about being a decent human being to the women who are already here? I mean say for the sake of argument that we go along with this theory that something utterly irrevocable happens at the magical age of 5. Doesn't a perfunctory nod to public decency still require that, if a woman in technology says "this article about women in technology does not portray people like me in the way I would prefer," anyone who is not in that category should acquiesce, or at least show a baseline level of respect for the request? When I was a raver, and I saw stories in the media about ravers, and I told my non-raver friends "yeah that doesn't quite correspond to reality," they were curious to hear what the reality was. When, as a first-generation American with British parents, I spot some unrealistic British character on an American TV show doing something no British person would ever do, if I point this out to Americans, they tend to listen. I think you have to just show respect for the fact that somebody in the category that the article was about disagrees with the depiction of the category. I think that's (no pun intended) categorical, and the larger issues of sexism are irrelevant here. I think that's just common courtesy, even leaving aside your argument that media only has an effect on the mental attitudes of children, and/or that the whole thing is a done deal by age 5 anyway so why bother -- OK honestly I have no idea what your argument was there. But I made a good-faith effort to tackle it and I think any discussion of women in tech should show a token level of courtesy, just on the offchance that they turn out to be human beings after all.
  - unreal37 15y ago
    In 2001, only 12% of video gamers were girls. Now in 2011, that number is 40%.[1] But the fact is, more boys play video games than girls, and 10 years ago when today's tech founders were growing up the ratio was 8:1. I do not support sexist language or sexism in general, and was not making a comment on whether this article was offensive. Merely stating that the 5-year-old girls who are not as interested in tech as their brothers are not being influenced by online blogs. [1] http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf
untog 15y ago
A quick google returns songs called "Damn Girl" by Justin Timberlake, All American Rejects... I think it's safe to say that it's just a well known phrase, not a reference to a song called "Sexy Bitch".
- kristianc 15y ago
  Actually, both those songs have misogynistic lyrics too. The JT song includes the line "Don't need no L'Oreal 'cause bitch you're bad as hell." Maybe referring to women as "girl" is just a bad jump-off point.
  - untog 15y ago
    The point I was making was that there is no reference to any of these songs in the article title. It's a commonly used phrase- including by women themselves.
  - koeselitz 15y ago
    It's not a reference to a song at all. It's a reference to a meme called "feminist Ryan Gosling."
    - kanamekun 15y ago
      I thought that the meme was, "Hey Girl"? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/ryan-gosling http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/ryan-gosling
Tossrock 15y ago
Completely unimportant quibble: That song is actually by David Guetta, and /features/ Akon.
- granfalloon 15y ago
  ah, but is it actually "by" david guetta, or is he just more business savvy than most pop producers?
kami8845 15y ago
>it references the Akon song "Sexy Bitch" No, it doesn't. Stop making up conspiracy theories where there are none.

granfalloon 15y ago

i agree with your main point, but saying that the title is a reference to Akon is a bit silly

unreal37 15y ago

I think you're trying to find a conspiracy where there is none. The lack of women in tech (and lack of women in science and math in general) starts at a very young age - while boys are immersed in video games and girls are having afternoon tea with their dolls. I doubt those 5-year-olds are influenced by the way women in tech are reported. Maybe society in general assigns gender roles that we all feel forced to comply with. Or maybe we're just different. Can't men and women just be a bit different?

kristianc 15y ago
Although boys have outperformed girls in exams in maths at 16 here in the UK for the last three years, girls had outperformed boys at maths for the decade before that. You're not arguing that men and women are "just a bit different" so much as you're arguing that people should conform to gender roles which don't necessarily apply. What about gay people in tech - Peter Thiel, Tim Cook, Ben Ling? Shouldn't they have been playing with Barbie dolls, or My Little Pony or whatever at a young age too?
- burke 15y ago
  I think the takeaway here is that: yes, there is quite likely a societally-imposed suggestion that men should go into software and women should not; however, that it's not just Silicon Valley's fault, and that the genders are really groomed essentially from birth for what they're "supposed to" do.
- unreal37 15y ago
  Oh, I can definitely believe girls outperform boys at math tests and even score higher on IQ tests. The question is interests. Why aren't they as interested in pursuing careers in those fields? Maybe we are just a bit different in that regard. And as for your theory on gay people in tech, I am not sure what you're saying. And not sure why you're even mentioning it actually.
  - vibrunazo 15y ago
    > The question is interests. The point they're trying to make is that you have very little evidence of that. Specially since girls of under 1 year old are already being surrounded with girly themes from their parents. They grow up being fed girly toys and mentality. Before a girl can even understand what a "toy" is, she is already surrounded by dolls in pink dresses. So it is really the girl's interests that differ from the boy's interests? Or is it their parent's interests being pushed to them? You don't know this, and you have absolutely no evidence to indicate that it's their born interest to like one thing over the other.
iamgilesbowkett 15y ago
"The lack of women in tech (and lack of women in science and math in general) starts at a very young age - while boys are immersed in video games and girls are having afternoon tea with their dolls. I doubt those 5-year-olds are influenced by the way women in tech are reported." I don't quite understand this. First, girls play video games. Everyone plays video games. Second, are you saying that portraying female founders in sexist terms is immaterial because whatever explains women being rare in tech has already taken effect after the age of 5? That would imply that sexism in media only merits attention at all if children 5 or under can see that media. I think that's pretty unlikely. And what about being a decent human being to the women who are already here? I mean say for the sake of argument that we go along with this theory that something utterly irrevocable happens at the magical age of 5. Doesn't a perfunctory nod to public decency still require that, if a woman in technology says "this article about women in technology does not portray people like me in the way I would prefer," anyone who is not in that category should acquiesce, or at least show a baseline level of respect for the request? When I was a raver, and I saw stories in the media about ravers, and I told my non-raver friends "yeah that doesn't quite correspond to reality," they were curious to hear what the reality was. When, as a first-generation American with British parents, I spot some unrealistic British character on an American TV show doing something no British person would ever do, if I point this out to Americans, they tend to listen. I think you have to just show respect for the fact that somebody in the category that the article was about disagrees with the depiction of the category. I think that's (no pun intended) categorical, and the larger issues of sexism are irrelevant here. I think that's just common courtesy, even leaving aside your argument that media only has an effect on the mental attitudes of children, and/or that the whole thing is a done deal by age 5 anyway so why bother -- OK honestly I have no idea what your argument was there. But I made a good-faith effort to tackle it and I think any discussion of women in tech should show a token level of courtesy, just on the offchance that they turn out to be human beings after all.
- unreal37 15y ago
  In 2001, only 12% of video gamers were girls. Now in 2011, that number is 40%.[1] But the fact is, more boys play video games than girls, and 10 years ago when today's tech founders were growing up the ratio was 8:1. I do not support sexist language or sexism in general, and was not making a comment on whether this article was offensive. Merely stating that the 5-year-old girls who are not as interested in tech as their brothers are not being influenced by online blogs. [1] http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf

untog 15y ago

A quick google returns songs called "Damn Girl" by Justin Timberlake, All American Rejects... I think it's safe to say that it's just a well known phrase, not a reference to a song called "Sexy Bitch".

kristianc 15y ago
Actually, both those songs have misogynistic lyrics too. The JT song includes the line "Don't need no L'Oreal 'cause bitch you're bad as hell." Maybe referring to women as "girl" is just a bad jump-off point.
- untog 15y ago
  The point I was making was that there is no reference to any of these songs in the article title. It's a commonly used phrase- including by women themselves.
- koeselitz 15y ago
  It's not a reference to a song at all. It's a reference to a meme called "feminist Ryan Gosling."
  - kanamekun 15y ago
    I thought that the meme was, "Hey Girl"? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/ryan-gosling http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/ryan-gosling

Tossrock 15y ago

Completely unimportant quibble: That song is actually by David Guetta, and /features/ Akon.

granfalloon 15y ago
ah, but is it actually "by" david guetta, or is he just more business savvy than most pop producers?

kami8845 15y ago

>it references the Akon song "Sexy Bitch" No, it doesn't. Stop making up conspiracy theories where there are none.