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You could see the attackers just as well as they see you. I meant because of the annoyance that it would create. The problem with warm lights is that they are

You could see the attackers just as well as they see you. I meant because of the annoyance that it would create. The problem with warm lights is that they are much harder to see in the dark. Maybe dim lights around 505nm would be a better idea.

cassianoleal 3y ago
> You could see the attackers just as well as they see you. That's only if they're moving within the sensors that switch on the light. > The problem with warm lights is that they are much harder to see in the dark. Not sure what "in the dark" means here. Light by definition is easier to see in the dark than it is in light as it has less light to compete with. In any case, I find warm lights much easier. Cold lights are too much sensorial information for me. In any case, street light at night shouldn't be meant to allow you to see everything like it's a sunny day. It's supposed to give you enough light that you can see your surroundings and potential threats around you. For that, warm lights should be more than enough. If you need more light clarity, light your own phone torch or something.
- canoebuilder 3y ago
  >If you need more light clarity, light your own phone torch or something. Good point! In this case of nighttime lighting infrastructure it has become so vastly overbuilt as if to save people “the trouble” of these simple targeted solutions.
- Anotheroneagain 3y ago
  I mean they need to be pretty bright to be visible at all. Notice how red leds still look dim at night, but green blue are shining in the dark room. The eye can't adapt well to dim warm light. And that is the other reason. Those would still make nights look like nights, they should look sort of moonlight like with reasonable brightness.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    I'm still unsure what you're advocating for. Dim, but cool coloured lights? That's certainly better than bright cool ones but I still find them very annoying and overstimulating at night. The only thing I can't do with dim, warm lighting is read small text from something other than a backlit screen. For everything else, it's perfectly fine. And if I do see myself having to do that, I'll just add a spot of light to what I'm trying to read, problem solved.
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      I think their point is that all the wavelengths that make the lights most-useful from a safety perspective are also those which interfere with seeing the stars and whatnot.
      - namibj 3y ago
        Low pressure sodium is useful for safety (you don't need color vision to see the shadow of an attacker, a fallen branch, shiny reflective shards of a glass bottle, or a pothole), efficient (Lumen/W), and extremely tame for star-observing (look through a narrow-band filter to block the two very thin very close spectral lines (so close you need decent instruments to see that its not just a single one)). The downside is that you don't get color vision, because the light is so close to monochromatic that you might as well think of it as truly monochromatic for human vision purposes.
      - cassianoleal 3y ago
        Ok, but that's where I'm confused. You don't need to see everything in full colour and detail to be safe. You need to be able to make out shapes, movements and shadows. A few years ago I lived in a neighbourhood where all the street lights had a dark yellow tint, very warm coloured. They weren't all that bright either. I could see a person a block away with ease. Again, that was far from ideal to read a book, but why would I do that out on the streets at night?
    - Anotheroneagain 3y ago
      The problem is that warm lights just look dimmer than they are in reality, you need objectively much brighter warm light to see anything at all. 505nm is a commonly available wavelength that is very near the eye's peak sensitivity in the dark, so a very low powered light would provide sufficient light, and it wouldn't be more overstimulating than moonlight unless it's way too bright. The only drawback it seems to have is that it's rather close to the O-III astronomical filter, I don't know how much it matters.
eszed 3y ago
Thinking like an attacker: find an ambush spot - probably near the trigger-point of the motion-sensor; hold very still; light goes off; victim approaches; ???; profit. I agree with you, though: lights blinking off and on all the time are not great. I drove somewhere in Europe where they did that with streetlights on major roads, and found it startling, long past the point at which I'd have assumed I'd become used to it. It wasn't the ones that were responding to me, it was the ones that responded to traffic on the opposite side of the road - they'd flash on in my peripheral vision and make me jump. Did not like.

cassianoleal 3y ago

> You could see the attackers just as well as they see you. That's only if they're moving within the sensors that switch on the light. > The problem with warm lights is that they are much harder to see in the dark. Not sure what "in the dark" means here. Light by definition is easier to see in the dark than it is in light as it has less light to compete with. In any case, I find warm lights much easier. Cold lights are too much sensorial information for me. In any case, street light at night shouldn't be meant to allow you to see everything like it's a sunny day. It's supposed to give you enough light that you can see your surroundings and potential threats around you. For that, warm lights should be more than enough. If you need more light clarity, light your own phone torch or something.

canoebuilder 3y ago
>If you need more light clarity, light your own phone torch or something. Good point! In this case of nighttime lighting infrastructure it has become so vastly overbuilt as if to save people “the trouble” of these simple targeted solutions.
Anotheroneagain 3y ago
I mean they need to be pretty bright to be visible at all. Notice how red leds still look dim at night, but green blue are shining in the dark room. The eye can't adapt well to dim warm light. And that is the other reason. Those would still make nights look like nights, they should look sort of moonlight like with reasonable brightness.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  I'm still unsure what you're advocating for. Dim, but cool coloured lights? That's certainly better than bright cool ones but I still find them very annoying and overstimulating at night. The only thing I can't do with dim, warm lighting is read small text from something other than a backlit screen. For everything else, it's perfectly fine. And if I do see myself having to do that, I'll just add a spot of light to what I'm trying to read, problem solved.
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    I think their point is that all the wavelengths that make the lights most-useful from a safety perspective are also those which interfere with seeing the stars and whatnot.
    - namibj 3y ago
      Low pressure sodium is useful for safety (you don't need color vision to see the shadow of an attacker, a fallen branch, shiny reflective shards of a glass bottle, or a pothole), efficient (Lumen/W), and extremely tame for star-observing (look through a narrow-band filter to block the two very thin very close spectral lines (so close you need decent instruments to see that its not just a single one)). The downside is that you don't get color vision, because the light is so close to monochromatic that you might as well think of it as truly monochromatic for human vision purposes.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      Ok, but that's where I'm confused. You don't need to see everything in full colour and detail to be safe. You need to be able to make out shapes, movements and shadows. A few years ago I lived in a neighbourhood where all the street lights had a dark yellow tint, very warm coloured. They weren't all that bright either. I could see a person a block away with ease. Again, that was far from ideal to read a book, but why would I do that out on the streets at night?
  - Anotheroneagain 3y ago
    The problem is that warm lights just look dimmer than they are in reality, you need objectively much brighter warm light to see anything at all. 505nm is a commonly available wavelength that is very near the eye's peak sensitivity in the dark, so a very low powered light would provide sufficient light, and it wouldn't be more overstimulating than moonlight unless it's way too bright. The only drawback it seems to have is that it's rather close to the O-III astronomical filter, I don't know how much it matters.

eszed 3y ago

Thinking like an attacker: find an ambush spot - probably near the trigger-point of the motion-sensor; hold very still; light goes off; victim approaches; ???; profit. I agree with you, though: lights blinking off and on all the time are not great. I drove somewhere in Europe where they did that with streetlights on major roads, and found it startling, long past the point at which I'd have assumed I'd become used to it. It wasn't the ones that were responding to me, it was the ones that responded to traffic on the opposite side of the road - they'd flash on in my peripheral vision and make me jump. Did not like.