6 ms·

By going wayland only Gtk is becoming less of a GUI toolkit and more of just an extremely specific and arbitrary lib for GNOME desktop environment.

mixedCase 3y ago
Gtk is not going wayland only.
- superkuh 3y ago
  https://www.phoronix.com/news/GTK5-Might-Drop-X11 https://www.phoronix.com/news/GTK5-Might-Drop-X11 "Red Hat's Matthias Clasen opened an issue on GTK entitled "Consider dropping the X11 backend"" https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5004 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5004
walteweiss 3y ago
Everyone goes Wayland, not just Gnome, X is obsolete.
- superkuh 3y ago
  And the handful of feature incompatible waylands are feature incomplete. You still can't keyboard/mouse share under any of them. That's just one of innumberable things you can't do.
  - walteweiss 3y ago
    I assume that will happen over time, won’t it?
    - gnulinux 3y ago
      No it won't Wayland protocol doesn't support it, besides Wayland has been here for such a long time. Pretending like Wayland is ready to replace X is like pretending like we can ban cars tomorrow and bikes will be good enough. It's completely delusional.
      - walteweiss 3y ago
        But if Wayland is a new step of development for X, then these features could be implemented differently, I believe. Maybe for security reasons or simplicity or others. As if someone misses X so much, they could still use it or even maintain it if they can. I never used X much, as I completely switched to Linux just a few years ago. So I don’t miss a thing.
      - play_ac 3y ago
        Keyboard/mouse sharing is completely unrelated to the Wayland protocol. Wayland is only concerned with sending input events to client windows. Generating and capturing global events is out-of-scope and it's an entirely different API. The way this works in X11 is a giant hack that requires multiple extensions and the end result is it compromises all security of those devices. It's even more delusional to pretend this was ever production-ready or that Wayland needs to be ready for anything here. The X11 implementation just shouldn't have been shipped at all.
        superkuh 3y ago
        You keep saying X11 is insecure but I've never had a problem with that in the last 20 years. I've never known anyone with an X11 security problem in the last 20 years. I've never heard of anyone having an X11 security problem in the last 20 years. Perhaps you can point me to an incident? The idea that it's "insecure" to let applications on your computer access the inputs of other programs comes from smartphone space where you don't actually control your computer or the software on it and that becomes a problem. But for actual computers you control it just isn't (a problem). Wayland for "security" is cargo culting smartphone user problems. It's not actually a real issue. I use the keyboard/mouse sharing in X11 (via synergy) and I have for 20 years. It is vitally important to my workflow. It works on dozens of different OSes including linux. But not the waylands linuxes. Any graphical environment that can't do this is useless to me. Might as well not even release the waylands at all (see how silly applying my personal preferences globally seems?).
        play_ac 3y ago
- gnulinux 3y ago
  Yet nothing works on Wayland. This is the kind of stuff that boils my blood as a linux user. In my arch install I do not intend to uninstall X for the next decade or so. Every time I tried switching to Wayland it was a circus of dozens of bugs and workflow I use everyday for work being "not supported".
  - margorczynski 3y ago
    I'm using arch with Wayland and Sway and don't see any major issues. The only time I use X is via XWayland for games.
  - play_ac 3y ago
    I realize it's probably a waste to say this to someone with your username, but getting angry at the situation is futile. You shouldn't use Linux if you're not used to random stuff changing and breaking by now and you're not comfortable adapting to those changes. Doubly so for a rolling release distro like Arch. X was obsolete and a security disaster last decade, holding onto it for another decade is just masochism. If this all is to much trouble for you to run a Unix-like desktop and keep it updated, there's always MacOS. They never even made the initial mistake of using X.
freedomben 3y ago
> By going wayland only You mean this one very small piece? That seems a bit hyperbolic

mixedCase 3y ago

Gtk is not going wayland only.

superkuh 3y ago
https://www.phoronix.com/news/GTK5-Might-Drop-X11 https://www.phoronix.com/news/GTK5-Might-Drop-X11 "Red Hat's Matthias Clasen opened an issue on GTK entitled "Consider dropping the X11 backend"" https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5004 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5004

walteweiss 3y ago

Everyone goes Wayland, not just Gnome, X is obsolete.

superkuh 3y ago
And the handful of feature incompatible waylands are feature incomplete. You still can't keyboard/mouse share under any of them. That's just one of innumberable things you can't do.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  I assume that will happen over time, won’t it?
  - gnulinux 3y ago
    No it won't Wayland protocol doesn't support it, besides Wayland has been here for such a long time. Pretending like Wayland is ready to replace X is like pretending like we can ban cars tomorrow and bikes will be good enough. It's completely delusional.
    - walteweiss 3y ago
      But if Wayland is a new step of development for X, then these features could be implemented differently, I believe. Maybe for security reasons or simplicity or others. As if someone misses X so much, they could still use it or even maintain it if they can. I never used X much, as I completely switched to Linux just a few years ago. So I don’t miss a thing.
    - play_ac 3y ago
      Keyboard/mouse sharing is completely unrelated to the Wayland protocol. Wayland is only concerned with sending input events to client windows. Generating and capturing global events is out-of-scope and it's an entirely different API. The way this works in X11 is a giant hack that requires multiple extensions and the end result is it compromises all security of those devices. It's even more delusional to pretend this was ever production-ready or that Wayland needs to be ready for anything here. The X11 implementation just shouldn't have been shipped at all.
      - superkuh 3y ago
        You keep saying X11 is insecure but I've never had a problem with that in the last 20 years. I've never known anyone with an X11 security problem in the last 20 years. I've never heard of anyone having an X11 security problem in the last 20 years. Perhaps you can point me to an incident? The idea that it's "insecure" to let applications on your computer access the inputs of other programs comes from smartphone space where you don't actually control your computer or the software on it and that becomes a problem. But for actual computers you control it just isn't (a problem). Wayland for "security" is cargo culting smartphone user problems. It's not actually a real issue. I use the keyboard/mouse sharing in X11 (via synergy) and I have for 20 years. It is vitally important to my workflow. It works on dozens of different OSes including linux. But not the waylands linuxes. Any graphical environment that can't do this is useless to me. Might as well not even release the waylands at all (see how silly applying my personal preferences globally seems?).
        play_ac 3y ago
gnulinux 3y ago
Yet nothing works on Wayland. This is the kind of stuff that boils my blood as a linux user. In my arch install I do not intend to uninstall X for the next decade or so. Every time I tried switching to Wayland it was a circus of dozens of bugs and workflow I use everyday for work being "not supported".
- margorczynski 3y ago
  I'm using arch with Wayland and Sway and don't see any major issues. The only time I use X is via XWayland for games.
- play_ac 3y ago
  I realize it's probably a waste to say this to someone with your username, but getting angry at the situation is futile. You shouldn't use Linux if you're not used to random stuff changing and breaking by now and you're not comfortable adapting to those changes. Doubly so for a rolling release distro like Arch. X was obsolete and a security disaster last decade, holding onto it for another decade is just masochism. If this all is to much trouble for you to run a Unix-like desktop and keep it updated, there's always MacOS. They never even made the initial mistake of using X.

freedomben 3y ago

> By going wayland only You mean this one very small piece? That seems a bit hyperbolic