4 ms·

Supporting a feature on one platform does not make a toolkit less relevant or practical on another platform.

by jdub 3y ago

pjmlp 3y ago
Except this has been happening for quite a while, hence why a couple of cross platform projects have migrated from Gtk to Qt, including Subsurface, a bit ironically, given the relationship of the project to Linus.
- jdub 3y ago
  Gtk has always been primarily built by and for Linux users.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    The GIMP Tolkit was always cross platform, the GNOME Tolkit not really.
    - jdub 3y ago
      That is ahistorical, and the misnaming doesn't help make your point.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        As former random Gtkmm contributor, with articles on the The C/C++ User Journal, I am not the revisionist here.
        DonHopkins 3y ago
        What's a Tolkit? And why two of them? I thought GTK was the Toolkit, GIMP was the Image Manipulation Program, and Gnome was the desktop Network Object Model Environment. Am I a revisionist here? (I certainly have my reservations about them!)
        pjmlp 3y ago
        GTK stand for The GIMP Toolkit, as it was originally used to write GIMP, which actually started as a MOTIF application. When GNOME adopted GTK as its foundation, there was a clear separation between GTK and the GNOME libraries, back in the 1.0 - 2.0 days. Eventually GNOME needs became GTK roadmap. The rest one can find on the history books.
        DonHopkins 3y ago
        Dude, I know. I've been implementing user interface toolkits since the early 80's, but I've still never heard of a "Tolkit", which you mentioned twice, so I asked you what it was -- are you making a silly pun like "Tollkit" for "Toolkit" or "Lamework" for "Framework" or "Bloatif" for "Motif" and I'm missing it? No hits on urban dictionary, even. And also you still haven't explained whether I'm a revisionist or not. Just like you, I love to write articles about user interface stuff all the time, too. Just in the past week: My enthusiastic but balanced response to somebody who EMPHATICALLY DEMANDED PIE MENUS ONLY for GIMP, and who loves pie fly, but pushed my button by defending the name GIMP by insisting that instead of the GIMP project simply and finally conceding its name is offensive, that our entire society adapt by globally re-signifying a widely known offensive hurtful word (so I suggested he first go try re-signifying the n-word first, and see how that went): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38233793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38233793 (While I would give more weight to the claim that the name GIMP is actually all about re-signifying an offensive term if it came from a qualified and empathic and wheelchair using interface designer like Haraldur Ingi Þorleifsson, I doubt that’s actually the real reason, just like it’s not white people’s job to re-signify the n-word by saying it all the time...) Meet the man who is making Iceland wheelchair accessible one ramp at a time: https://scoop.upworthy.com/meet-the-man-who-is-making-iceland-wheelchair-accessible https://scoop.upworthy.com/meet-the-man-who-is-making-icelan... Elon Musk apologises after mocking laid-off Twitter worker, questioning his disability: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-08/elon-musk-haraldur-thorleifsson-twitter-argument-disability/102069040 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-08/elon-musk-haraldur-th... The article about redesigning GIMP we were discussing credited Blender with being the first to show what mouse buttons do what at the bottom of the screen, which actually the Lisp Machine deserves credit for, as far as I know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38237231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38237231 I made a joke about how telling GIMP developers to make it more like Photoshop was like telling RMS to develop Open Software for Linux, instead of Free Software for GNU/Linux, and somebody took the bait so I flamed about the GIMP developer’s lack of listening skills: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38238274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38238274 Somebody used the phrase "Easy as pie” in a discussion about user interface design so I had to chime in: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38239113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38239113 Discussion about HTML Web Components, in which I confess my secret affair with XML, XSLT, obsolete proprietary Microsoft technologies, and Punkemon pie menus: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38253752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38253752 Deep interesting discussion about Blender 4.0 release notes, focusing on its historic development and its developer’s humility and openness to its users’ suggestions, in which I commented on its excellent Python integration. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263171 Comment on how Blender earned its loads of money and support by being responsive to its users. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38232404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38232404 Dark puns about user interface toolkits and a cheap shot at Motif, with an analogy between GIMP and Blender: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263088 A content warning to a parent who wanted to know which videos their 8-year-old should watch on YouTube to learn Blender: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38288629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38288629 Posing with a cement garden gnome flipping the bird with Chris Toshok and Miguel de Icaza and his mom at GDC2010: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606531754&set=a.51733291754 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606531754&set=a.5173... https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606491754&set=a.51733291754 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606491754&set=a.5173... https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606436754&set=a.51733291754 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606436754&set=a.5173...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - saltcured 3y ago
      After seeing this whole thread a day late, I have to wonder: is the unspoken difference what "cross-platform" and "always" mean to different posters? To someone with my historical perspective, it grates a bit to see X Windows conflated with Linux as a platform. My memory of the early days is consistent with what the wikipedia page says about GIMP. It was cross-platform on the typical Unix workstations that were around the UC Berkeley campus labs and XCF. This was things like Solaris, SunOS, HP-UX, Ultrix, and Irix. Students in this milieu were just as likely to have some BSD variant on their home PC as Linux. I think it was later during and after the "Beowulf" scientific computing period when Linux started to dominate as the Unix-like platform for open source development.
- play_ac 3y ago
  The Subsurface developer did that 10 years ago and it only was because he personally preferred Qt. Take a step back for a moment and consider that in 10 years that's the only major example that anyone ever brings out. GTK is still very welcoming for contributions to maintain the GDK backends. Developers like that have to actually step up and do it and have patience, instead of outright quitting and running off to Qt which has a whole company to maintain those ports.

Supporting a feature on one platform does not make a toolkit less relevant or practical on another platform.

by jdub 3y ago

Supporting a feature on one platform does not make a toolkit less relevant or practical on another platform.

Except this has been happening for quite a while, hence why a couple of cross platform projects have migrated from Gtk to Qt, including Subsurface, a bit ironically, given the relationship of the project to Linus.

jdub 3y ago
Gtk has always been primarily built by and for Linux users.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  The GIMP Tolkit was always cross platform, the GNOME Tolkit not really.
  - jdub 3y ago
    That is ahistorical, and the misnaming doesn't help make your point.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      As former random Gtkmm contributor, with articles on the The C/C++ User Journal, I am not the revisionist here.
      - DonHopkins 3y ago
        What's a Tolkit? And why two of them? I thought GTK was the Toolkit, GIMP was the Image Manipulation Program, and Gnome was the desktop Network Object Model Environment. Am I a revisionist here? (I certainly have my reservations about them!)
        pjmlp 3y ago
        GTK stand for The GIMP Toolkit, as it was originally used to write GIMP, which actually started as a MOTIF application. When GNOME adopted GTK as its foundation, there was a clear separation between GTK and the GNOME libraries, back in the 1.0 - 2.0 days. Eventually GNOME needs became GTK roadmap. The rest one can find on the history books.
        DonHopkins 3y ago
        Dude, I know. I've been implementing user interface toolkits since the early 80's, but I've still never heard of a "Tolkit", which you mentioned twice, so I asked you what it was -- are you making a silly pun like "Tollkit" for "Toolkit" or "Lamework" for "Framework" or "Bloatif" for "Motif" and I'm missing it? No hits on urban dictionary, even. And also you still haven't explained whether I'm a revisionist or not. Just like you, I love to write articles about user interface stuff all the time, too. Just in the past week: My enthusiastic but balanced response to somebody who EMPHATICALLY DEMANDED PIE MENUS ONLY for GIMP, and who loves pie fly, but pushed my button by defending the name GIMP by insisting that instead of the GIMP project simply and finally conceding its name is offensive, that our entire society adapt by globally re-signifying a widely known offensive hurtful word (so I suggested he first go try re-signifying the n-word first, and see how that went): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38233793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38233793 (While I would give more weight to the claim that the name GIMP is actually all about re-signifying an offensive term if it came from a qualified and empathic and wheelchair using interface designer like Haraldur Ingi Þorleifsson, I doubt that’s actually the real reason, just like it’s not white people’s job to re-signify the n-word by saying it all the time...) Meet the man who is making Iceland wheelchair accessible one ramp at a time: https://scoop.upworthy.com/meet-the-man-who-is-making-iceland-wheelchair-accessible https://scoop.upworthy.com/meet-the-man-who-is-making-icelan... Elon Musk apologises after mocking laid-off Twitter worker, questioning his disability: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-08/elon-musk-haraldur-thorleifsson-twitter-argument-disability/102069040 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-08/elon-musk-haraldur-th... The article about redesigning GIMP we were discussing credited Blender with being the first to show what mouse buttons do what at the bottom of the screen, which actually the Lisp Machine deserves credit for, as far as I know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38237231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38237231 I made a joke about how telling GIMP developers to make it more like Photoshop was like telling RMS to develop Open Software for Linux, instead of Free Software for GNU/Linux, and somebody took the bait so I flamed about the GIMP developer’s lack of listening skills: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38238274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38238274 Somebody used the phrase "Easy as pie” in a discussion about user interface design so I had to chime in: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38239113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38239113 Discussion about HTML Web Components, in which I confess my secret affair with XML, XSLT, obsolete proprietary Microsoft technologies, and Punkemon pie menus: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38253752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38253752 Deep interesting discussion about Blender 4.0 release notes, focusing on its historic development and its developer’s humility and openness to its users’ suggestions, in which I commented on its excellent Python integration. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263171 Comment on how Blender earned its loads of money and support by being responsive to its users. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38232404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38232404 Dark puns about user interface toolkits and a cheap shot at Motif, with an analogy between GIMP and Blender: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38263088 A content warning to a parent who wanted to know which videos their 8-year-old should watch on YouTube to learn Blender: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38288629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38288629 Posing with a cement garden gnome flipping the bird with Chris Toshok and Miguel de Icaza and his mom at GDC2010: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606531754&set=a.51733291754 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606531754&set=a.5173... https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606491754&set=a.51733291754 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606491754&set=a.5173... https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606436754&set=a.51733291754 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=299606436754&set=a.5173...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - saltcured 3y ago
    After seeing this whole thread a day late, I have to wonder: is the unspoken difference what "cross-platform" and "always" mean to different posters? To someone with my historical perspective, it grates a bit to see X Windows conflated with Linux as a platform. My memory of the early days is consistent with what the wikipedia page says about GIMP. It was cross-platform on the typical Unix workstations that were around the UC Berkeley campus labs and XCF. This was things like Solaris, SunOS, HP-UX, Ultrix, and Irix. Students in this milieu were just as likely to have some BSD variant on their home PC as Linux. I think it was later during and after the "Beowulf" scientific computing period when Linux started to dominate as the Unix-like platform for open source development.
play_ac 3y ago
The Subsurface developer did that 10 years ago and it only was because he personally preferred Qt. Take a step back for a moment and consider that in 10 years that's the only major example that anyone ever brings out. GTK is still very welcoming for contributions to maintain the GDK backends. Developers like that have to actually step up and do it and have patience, instead of outright quitting and running off to Qt which has a whole company to maintain those ports.