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Hoping this would bear fruit for macOS, but looks like the maintainer instead has written a mini anti-Apple screed and intentionally doesn't support it. https:/

Hoping this would bear fruit for macOS, but looks like the maintainer instead has written a mini anti-Apple screed and intentionally doesn't support it. https://github.com/FWGS/xash3d-fwgs/issues/61 https://github.com/FWGS/xash3d-fwgs/issues/61

deaddodo 3y ago
I mean, yes it's somewhat anti-Apple. But their justifications aren't really wrong.
Modified3019 3y ago
Reading through the thread, the dev stance honestly seems pretty reasonable. He initially supported it, but Apple kept making changes that caused trouble. Since the devs don’t have Apple devices and have no personal interest supporting the platform, they cut “support”. They continually invite anyone that wants to come onboard to support it on Apple if they want to. Your post (to me) initially reads as seeming like they are actively blocking Apple support out of ideology, but that’s not the case. They even seem to occasionally entertain possible ways to add compatibility without extra effort. Microsoft is also increasingly causing them problems, with the antivirus and software signing needed to ensure getting past it.
atoav 3y ago
I guess it is your time to shine then. Open source is a two-way street.
xcv123 3y ago
He personally doesn't have time or motivation or desire to buy a Mac just to support it, but he also won't reject pull requests from others to add MacOS support.
gu009 3y ago
Mac Source Ports has a macOS version of this, including Apple Silicon support. Played it recently and it works very well despite a couple of annoyances. Mac Source Ports is fantastic overall, there’s a ton of other games available too. http://www.macsourceports.com/game/halflife http://www.macsourceports.com/game/halflife
- skrrtww 3y ago
  Thanks! I had not seen this. Am I missing something, or is his actual build not open source? edit: Here it is. This looks like a good place to work from: https://github.com/MacSourcePorts/xash3d-fwgs https://github.com/MacSourcePorts/xash3d-fwgs Looks like the main annoyance is no resolution scaling; the game always renders at the size of the window, which at high pixel densities is a problem for the text rendering (it's tiny). Should be solvable for someone motivated though.
  - a1ba 3y ago
    Maintainer here. We have upstream support for macOS now, since there is at least one person ready to work on it. Well, thankfully, it doesn't require too much work, except some Apple specifics. If someone could set up a CI build, that would be awesome.
    - fnky 3y ago
      I personally didn't have an overall problem compiling the project on macOS in the past. The only issue I ran into was not being able to get VGUI to work, so there were no HUD in-game. Last I did this was ~6 months ago, though, so it could be things have improved now.
      - a1ba 3y ago
        VGUI usually isn't used for HUD drawing. If you have problems, better report them at our issue tracker on GitHub. Even if it was unsupported configuration, there might be somebody who knows how to fix this exact issue.
bakugo 3y ago
> mini anti-Apple screed It's not the developer's fault that Apple forces them to bend over backwards and continuously update and rewrite huge chunks of their software just to make sure it doesn't get broken by every other macOS update changing or removing some essential API or feature that every other OS still supports. The simple fact that OpenGL and Vulkan are supported on Windows, Linux and Android, but not macOS, which only supports a single proprietary graphics API that everyone is forced to use, should be enough of a reason for game developers to stay far away from it, and indeed, most do. Valve themselves have decided to distance themselves from macOS in recent years due to Apple's behavior despite openly embracing it in the past. If you're going to buy a Mac expecting to game on it, you should take this into consideration.
treyd 3y ago
That doesn't read like a "screed" to me. That's a pretty reasonable justification and it's probably not worth the effort to support a toolchain to target Metal for a platform that isn't often used for gaming in the first place.
- Klonoar 3y ago
  It reads like "a screed" due to the way they write with unnecessary vitriol. Their reasons are definitely understandable though.
  - badsectoracula 3y ago
    > unnecessary vitriol. The vitriol is very necessary to communicate that such actions are disliked.
    - Klonoar 3y ago
      No, it's really not. ;P Their reasons for disliking the Apple ecosystem are fine, it just doesn't need the tone. It's like reading something from /. circa the mid 2000s - most of us have grown up since then.
      - badsectoracula 3y ago
        > it just doesn't need the tone IMO it does, people aren't machines and they both tend to produce and respond to strongly worded criticism. > It's like reading something from /. circa the mid 2000s - most of us have grown up since then. New humans are created all the time, the people who disliked at what big companies were doing back in 2000s - and being vocal about it in the social platforms of the time - growing complacent in 2020s doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same.
        skrrtww 3y ago
        I don't think anyone is trying to go to bat for Apple's graphics API policies in this thread or are corporate shills. I originally described it as a screed because of the tone, profanity, several factual inaccuracies, as well as the cutting and derogatory comments by the maintainer further down in the thread that I found unwarranted.
999900000999 3y ago
Here's my anti Apple Rant. I got an email the other day, that despite me paying my 100$ a year fee, my hobbyist game would be removed unless I update it. This is after the pure hell of getting my developer account working and getting the app approved in the first place. The email didn't say it's not running properly on iPhones anymore. Just I need to waste my time updating this app. I immediately canceled my developer subscription. Google is starting to crack down on hobbyist projects as well. Whatever, Unity Web builds are fast enough on mobile browsers. I'll upload the game to itch.io, if anyone wants to play it, they can do it there. Apple doesn't bother to support standardized tech like Vulkan, and generally makes like difficult. As far as my hobbyist projects go I'm moving away from proprietary software, and moving towards open source GitHub projects. I code outside of work for fun. Once I need to jump though 800 hoops to get my project to end users I lose motivation.
- Roark66 3y ago
  >I got an email the other day, that despite me paying my 100$ a year fee, my hobbyist game would be removed unless I update it. Isn't this the same on Google play? I got a similar email around August time saying end of August is the cutoff date for upgrading to Android 13.if I don't upgrade my app they'll take it down. What's the difference?
  - saturn_vk 3y ago
    I don't think they need to pay 100 per year on Google play
    - 999900000999 3y ago
      Correct. I paid a 20$ fee once years ago.
  - unixhero 3y ago
    Why does there have to be a difference?
- brynbryn 3y ago
BaculumMeumEst 3y ago
Apple removed OpenGL support that his project depends on while he was working on it. Developers were unhappy with Apple _explicitly choosing_ not to allocate resources to maintaining a widely used open source graphics backend, because it means a lot of open source code floating around will not work without a lot of extra effort. I suspect that you fundamentally do not understand the issue since you're characterizing the developer not putting in that extra work as "intentionally not supporting Apple".
fulafel 3y ago
Anyone tried the Linux version on Apple hw?
bonyt 3y ago
Managed to get this compiled and running on my M1 MBA pretty quickly, although a bit tricky. For reference to those who might attempt, I had to swap 'python' for 'python3' in the header of the waf binary, patch one file to replace 'malloc.h' with 'stdlib.h" to overcome the one compile error, compile the hlsdk-portable library referenced in the README (again with waf tweaked), and copy both the resulting dlls/hl_arm64.dylib and cl_dll/client_arm64.dylib into the valve folder.

deaddodo 3y ago

I mean, yes it's somewhat anti-Apple. But their justifications aren't really wrong.

Modified3019 3y ago

Reading through the thread, the dev stance honestly seems pretty reasonable. He initially supported it, but Apple kept making changes that caused trouble. Since the devs don’t have Apple devices and have no personal interest supporting the platform, they cut “support”. They continually invite anyone that wants to come onboard to support it on Apple if they want to. Your post (to me) initially reads as seeming like they are actively blocking Apple support out of ideology, but that’s not the case. They even seem to occasionally entertain possible ways to add compatibility without extra effort. Microsoft is also increasingly causing them problems, with the antivirus and software signing needed to ensure getting past it.

atoav 3y ago

I guess it is your time to shine then. Open source is a two-way street.

xcv123 3y ago

He personally doesn't have time or motivation or desire to buy a Mac just to support it, but he also won't reject pull requests from others to add MacOS support.

gu009 3y ago

Mac Source Ports has a macOS version of this, including Apple Silicon support. Played it recently and it works very well despite a couple of annoyances. Mac Source Ports is fantastic overall, there’s a ton of other games available too. http://www.macsourceports.com/game/halflife http://www.macsourceports.com/game/halflife

skrrtww 3y ago
Thanks! I had not seen this. Am I missing something, or is his actual build not open source? edit: Here it is. This looks like a good place to work from: https://github.com/MacSourcePorts/xash3d-fwgs https://github.com/MacSourcePorts/xash3d-fwgs Looks like the main annoyance is no resolution scaling; the game always renders at the size of the window, which at high pixel densities is a problem for the text rendering (it's tiny). Should be solvable for someone motivated though.
- a1ba 3y ago
  Maintainer here. We have upstream support for macOS now, since there is at least one person ready to work on it. Well, thankfully, it doesn't require too much work, except some Apple specifics. If someone could set up a CI build, that would be awesome.
  - fnky 3y ago
    I personally didn't have an overall problem compiling the project on macOS in the past. The only issue I ran into was not being able to get VGUI to work, so there were no HUD in-game. Last I did this was ~6 months ago, though, so it could be things have improved now.
    - a1ba 3y ago
      VGUI usually isn't used for HUD drawing. If you have problems, better report them at our issue tracker on GitHub. Even if it was unsupported configuration, there might be somebody who knows how to fix this exact issue.

bakugo 3y ago

> mini anti-Apple screed It's not the developer's fault that Apple forces them to bend over backwards and continuously update and rewrite huge chunks of their software just to make sure it doesn't get broken by every other macOS update changing or removing some essential API or feature that every other OS still supports. The simple fact that OpenGL and Vulkan are supported on Windows, Linux and Android, but not macOS, which only supports a single proprietary graphics API that everyone is forced to use, should be enough of a reason for game developers to stay far away from it, and indeed, most do. Valve themselves have decided to distance themselves from macOS in recent years due to Apple's behavior despite openly embracing it in the past. If you're going to buy a Mac expecting to game on it, you should take this into consideration.

treyd 3y ago

That doesn't read like a "screed" to me. That's a pretty reasonable justification and it's probably not worth the effort to support a toolchain to target Metal for a platform that isn't often used for gaming in the first place.

Klonoar 3y ago
It reads like "a screed" due to the way they write with unnecessary vitriol. Their reasons are definitely understandable though.
- badsectoracula 3y ago
  > unnecessary vitriol. The vitriol is very necessary to communicate that such actions are disliked.
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    No, it's really not. ;P Their reasons for disliking the Apple ecosystem are fine, it just doesn't need the tone. It's like reading something from /. circa the mid 2000s - most of us have grown up since then.
    - badsectoracula 3y ago
      > it just doesn't need the tone IMO it does, people aren't machines and they both tend to produce and respond to strongly worded criticism. > It's like reading something from /. circa the mid 2000s - most of us have grown up since then. New humans are created all the time, the people who disliked at what big companies were doing back in 2000s - and being vocal about it in the social platforms of the time - growing complacent in 2020s doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same.
      - skrrtww 3y ago
        I don't think anyone is trying to go to bat for Apple's graphics API policies in this thread or are corporate shills. I originally described it as a screed because of the tone, profanity, several factual inaccuracies, as well as the cutting and derogatory comments by the maintainer further down in the thread that I found unwarranted.

999900000999 3y ago

Here's my anti Apple Rant. I got an email the other day, that despite me paying my 100$ a year fee, my hobbyist game would be removed unless I update it. This is after the pure hell of getting my developer account working and getting the app approved in the first place. The email didn't say it's not running properly on iPhones anymore. Just I need to waste my time updating this app. I immediately canceled my developer subscription. Google is starting to crack down on hobbyist projects as well. Whatever, Unity Web builds are fast enough on mobile browsers. I'll upload the game to itch.io, if anyone wants to play it, they can do it there. Apple doesn't bother to support standardized tech like Vulkan, and generally makes like difficult. As far as my hobbyist projects go I'm moving away from proprietary software, and moving towards open source GitHub projects. I code outside of work for fun. Once I need to jump though 800 hoops to get my project to end users I lose motivation.

Roark66 3y ago
>I got an email the other day, that despite me paying my 100$ a year fee, my hobbyist game would be removed unless I update it. Isn't this the same on Google play? I got a similar email around August time saying end of August is the cutoff date for upgrading to Android 13.if I don't upgrade my app they'll take it down. What's the difference?
- saturn_vk 3y ago
  I don't think they need to pay 100 per year on Google play
  - 999900000999 3y ago
    Correct. I paid a 20$ fee once years ago.
- unixhero 3y ago
  Why does there have to be a difference?
brynbryn 3y ago

BaculumMeumEst 3y ago

Apple removed OpenGL support that his project depends on while he was working on it. Developers were unhappy with Apple _explicitly choosing_ not to allocate resources to maintaining a widely used open source graphics backend, because it means a lot of open source code floating around will not work without a lot of extra effort. I suspect that you fundamentally do not understand the issue since you're characterizing the developer not putting in that extra work as "intentionally not supporting Apple".

fulafel 3y ago

Anyone tried the Linux version on Apple hw?

bonyt 3y ago

Managed to get this compiled and running on my M1 MBA pretty quickly, although a bit tricky. For reference to those who might attempt, I had to swap 'python' for 'python3' in the header of the waf binary, patch one file to replace 'malloc.h' with 'stdlib.h" to overcome the one compile error, compile the hlsdk-portable library referenced in the README (again with waf tweaked), and copy both the resulting dlls/hl_arm64.dylib and cl_dll/client_arm64.dylib into the valve folder.