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I have lived in Toronto, Canada, for 15 years and never had a car. My family gets around all year by walking, public transit and cycling. Most people live in u

I have lived in Toronto, Canada, for 15 years and never had a car. My family gets around all year by walking, public transit and cycling. Most people live in urban centers where it is perfectly possible to live without a car. And as car use decreases, public transit availability will increase, together with other forms of transportation that don't have the externalities of private motor vehicles.

FredPret 3y ago
I did the same in Toronto. Then I bought a car. Night and day. Life became 10x easier. Suddenly Costco trips were possible. Weekend trips to cottage country. Visiting friends on the other side of town was a two-hour TTC (Toronto's public transit) ordeal; suddenly it became a 15-minute comfortable, safe, addict-free, warm car ride.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  I have no doubt that driving a car would be very convenient, but how would that choice affect my neighbors? Because car traffic in the stroads around here make our homes noisy, our air polluted and our streets unsafe for children to play and be independent. It's inconceivable to me that my kids can't bike to school because of all the car traffic around it... caused by parents dropping off their kids to school. Cars increase the safety of the people inside them at the detriment of everybody else. We can thankfully begin to hear the death rattles of car-dependent urban planning and our cities will be much better once it's behind us.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    False dichotomy. Also, air pollution from cars & child pedestrian deaths has never been lower.
    - david-gpu 3y ago
      What false dichotomy? Cars, even EVs, are the main cause of small particulates in the air of our cities. Cars are the #1 cause of death of children, followed by drowning. Pedestrian deaths are actually on the rise for the past ten years or so in the US and Canada due to the increasing popularity of large SUVs and pickup trucks, which have poor visibility and blunt hoods. It's a disaster for those of us outside the car and the saddest part is that it's a problem that has been solved in most of the developed world.
      - FredPret 3y ago
        If you think cars are a disaster, and that Toronto is somehow more car-centric than "most of the developed world", I think you should hop on the next bus to Pearson and go see some of the developed and undeveloped world. I've lived on three continents, and Toronto is the safest, cleanest city I've ever been in. You could totally make living there without a car work (if not comfortably). There are like 2-3 cities on the entire continent where that is true. In Europe, there are more walkable cities, but you pay heavily for that directly and indirectly. Cars are a big economic boost.
        david-gpu 3y ago
        I have lived in three countries as well, and Toronto is neither the safest or cleanest city where I have been. So much for personal anecdotes, then. You yourself admit that once you bought a car in Toronto "Life became 10x easier", so which way is it? As for living there without a car, that's all I've ever done, so I'm quite familiar with the pros and cons. As I said earlier, I have no doubt that it would be convenient to live in Toronto with a car, it's just that I refuse to become part of the problem. Also, just because it is not as bad as the worst places we can think of doesn't mean it is any good. Just look at the number of children and women riding their bikes for daily errands, as it is a good rule of thumb for how cycling friendly a place really is. As for their economic consequences, car-centric suburbs are objectively a net drain to a city's coffers regardless of our personal opinion [0]. [0] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growth-ponzi-scheme-md2020 https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growt...
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  People who think their will be this mass migration away from personal cars once buses, trains, and bike paths are everywhere are completely delusional.

FredPret 3y ago

I did the same in Toronto. Then I bought a car. Night and day. Life became 10x easier. Suddenly Costco trips were possible. Weekend trips to cottage country. Visiting friends on the other side of town was a two-hour TTC (Toronto's public transit) ordeal; suddenly it became a 15-minute comfortable, safe, addict-free, warm car ride.

david-gpu 3y ago
I have no doubt that driving a car would be very convenient, but how would that choice affect my neighbors? Because car traffic in the stroads around here make our homes noisy, our air polluted and our streets unsafe for children to play and be independent. It's inconceivable to me that my kids can't bike to school because of all the car traffic around it... caused by parents dropping off their kids to school. Cars increase the safety of the people inside them at the detriment of everybody else. We can thankfully begin to hear the death rattles of car-dependent urban planning and our cities will be much better once it's behind us.
- FredPret 3y ago
  False dichotomy. Also, air pollution from cars & child pedestrian deaths has never been lower.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    What false dichotomy? Cars, even EVs, are the main cause of small particulates in the air of our cities. Cars are the #1 cause of death of children, followed by drowning. Pedestrian deaths are actually on the rise for the past ten years or so in the US and Canada due to the increasing popularity of large SUVs and pickup trucks, which have poor visibility and blunt hoods. It's a disaster for those of us outside the car and the saddest part is that it's a problem that has been solved in most of the developed world.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      If you think cars are a disaster, and that Toronto is somehow more car-centric than "most of the developed world", I think you should hop on the next bus to Pearson and go see some of the developed and undeveloped world. I've lived on three continents, and Toronto is the safest, cleanest city I've ever been in. You could totally make living there without a car work (if not comfortably). There are like 2-3 cities on the entire continent where that is true. In Europe, there are more walkable cities, but you pay heavily for that directly and indirectly. Cars are a big economic boost.
      - david-gpu 3y ago
        I have lived in three countries as well, and Toronto is neither the safest or cleanest city where I have been. So much for personal anecdotes, then. You yourself admit that once you bought a car in Toronto "Life became 10x easier", so which way is it? As for living there without a car, that's all I've ever done, so I'm quite familiar with the pros and cons. As I said earlier, I have no doubt that it would be convenient to live in Toronto with a car, it's just that I refuse to become part of the problem. Also, just because it is not as bad as the worst places we can think of doesn't mean it is any good. Just look at the number of children and women riding their bikes for daily errands, as it is a good rule of thumb for how cycling friendly a place really is. As for their economic consequences, car-centric suburbs are objectively a net drain to a city's coffers regardless of our personal opinion [0]. [0] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growth-ponzi-scheme-md2020 https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growt...
Workaccount2 3y ago
People who think their will be this mass migration away from personal cars once buses, trains, and bike paths are everywhere are completely delusional.