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> But it does mean they're about "language" rather than knowledge. To some extent, those are kind of the same thing.

tessierashpool 3y ago
they really are not. you can use language as a proxy for knowledge in some cases, but doing so guarantees generating bullshit, which is the entire point of the OP.
tivert 3y ago
> To some extent, those are kind of the same thing. They are not the same thing. They are not even "kind of" the same thing, for any reasonable definition of "kind of." That should be obvious, because a lie is language, which is pretty close to the opposite of knowledge. I mean no offense, but your hedging words are doing so much work that I think your statement counts as bullshit. Edit: thinking about it more, I think your comment shows the particular kind of bullshit that often characterizes tech people's thinking and is so useful for hyping shit (e.g. take something hard, lossily reformulate it into something easier but vaguely similar, solve the easy thing, then declare you solved the hard thing).
- tbrownaw 3y ago
  A language is a particular way of serializing concepts and their relationships. Knowledge is... concepts and their relationships, typically with the implication of being grounded in objective reality (although one can be knowledgeable about things like, say, Tolkien, or Star Wars, or fantasy tropes more generally). . Language is (a particular way of representing) knowledge, in about the same way that a particular .cpp file is (a particular way of representing) a linked list or whatever.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - tivert 3y ago
    > Language is (a particular way of representing) knowledge, in about the same way that a particular .cpp file is (a particular way of representing) a linked list or whatever. So, in your view, are .cpp files and linked lists "kind of" the same thing? Language can be used to express some kinds of knowledge, but they're not even "kind of" synonymous. Language can express a lot of things that aren't knowledge, and there's knowledge that can't be expressed with language (qualia, at least).
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Of course they are the same thing. Language as humans use it isn't a god-given perfect formal grammar system. It's people grunting and gulping about what they experience, for many thousand of years, each generation picking up the patterns from the generation before, and adding to them. Language was, is, and always has been about knowledge, because you literally build the language skill up from correlations. All the more and less formal models we invent for describing "language"? This is just fitting curves to a snapshot of reality. So sure, "a lie is language, which is pretty close to the opposite of knowledge" - a lie can be expressed in the formal model. But the truth (as subjectively understood) is much more likely to be spoken or written down in practice. Communication isn't random. Language isn't random. Learning it is picking up the patterns.
  - tivert 3y ago
    I'm having trouble understanding why you'd respond with that. Are you interpreting knowledge to mean knowledge-of-language or something? >>>> But it does mean they're about "language" rather than knowledge. >>> To some extent, those are kind of the same thing. >> They are not the same thing. > Of course they are the same thing. Language and knowledge (both broadly construed) are obviously not the same thing. Language can encode non-knowledge like nonsense or lies, and there is knowledge (e.g. of the experience of qualia) that can't be expressed in language. I think the point up-thread is true: something that knows only about how language is unreliable source of knowledge. Even if all its input is true knowledge, it can still blindly combine that input in linguistically plausible but false ways.

they really are not. you can use language as a proxy for knowledge in some cases, but doing so guarantees generating bullshit, which is the entire point of the OP.

tivert 3y ago

> To some extent, those are kind of the same thing. They are not the same thing. They are not even "kind of" the same thing, for any reasonable definition of "kind of." That should be obvious, because a lie is language, which is pretty close to the opposite of knowledge. I mean no offense, but your hedging words are doing so much work that I think your statement counts as bullshit. Edit: thinking about it more, I think your comment shows the particular kind of bullshit that often characterizes tech people's thinking and is so useful for hyping shit (e.g. take something hard, lossily reformulate it into something easier but vaguely similar, solve the easy thing, then declare you solved the hard thing).

tbrownaw 3y ago
A language is a particular way of serializing concepts and their relationships. Knowledge is... concepts and their relationships, typically with the implication of being grounded in objective reality (although one can be knowledgeable about things like, say, Tolkien, or Star Wars, or fantasy tropes more generally). . Language is (a particular way of representing) knowledge, in about the same way that a particular .cpp file is (a particular way of representing) a linked list or whatever.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tivert 3y ago
  > Language is (a particular way of representing) knowledge, in about the same way that a particular .cpp file is (a particular way of representing) a linked list or whatever. So, in your view, are .cpp files and linked lists "kind of" the same thing? Language can be used to express some kinds of knowledge, but they're not even "kind of" synonymous. Language can express a lot of things that aren't knowledge, and there's knowledge that can't be expressed with language (qualia, at least).
TeMPOraL 3y ago
Of course they are the same thing. Language as humans use it isn't a god-given perfect formal grammar system. It's people grunting and gulping about what they experience, for many thousand of years, each generation picking up the patterns from the generation before, and adding to them. Language was, is, and always has been about knowledge, because you literally build the language skill up from correlations. All the more and less formal models we invent for describing "language"? This is just fitting curves to a snapshot of reality. So sure, "a lie is language, which is pretty close to the opposite of knowledge" - a lie can be expressed in the formal model. But the truth (as subjectively understood) is much more likely to be spoken or written down in practice. Communication isn't random. Language isn't random. Learning it is picking up the patterns.
- tivert 3y ago
  I'm having trouble understanding why you'd respond with that. Are you interpreting knowledge to mean knowledge-of-language or something? >>>> But it does mean they're about "language" rather than knowledge. >>> To some extent, those are kind of the same thing. >> They are not the same thing. > Of course they are the same thing. Language and knowledge (both broadly construed) are obviously not the same thing. Language can encode non-knowledge like nonsense or lies, and there is knowledge (e.g. of the experience of qualia) that can't be expressed in language. I think the point up-thread is true: something that knows only about how language is unreliable source of knowledge. Even if all its input is true knowledge, it can still blindly combine that input in linguistically plausible but false ways.