6 ms·

I hope we see this act cut billions out of these platform rent seekers bottom lines

by jncfhnb 3y ago

pb7 3y ago
Why?
- smoldesu 3y ago
  For one, it would return us to the status-quo where the user decides what to install on the hardware they own. That seems pretty important to me, even if you hate Europe or Apple.
  - tinus_hn 3y ago
    If only there were hardware where you could install whatever you want. If only that hardware had a very large majority market share in the EU. Ah. One can dream.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Well, now it will be the only market in Europe. Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree.
    - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
      That would be nice, wouldn't it? I have a feeling the majority market share may have shifted a bit since 1999. (edit: I mean from PC to IOS and Android)
    - realusername 3y ago
      Like what? The Nokia N900 or the Pinephone? There's never been any realistic choice to make.
      - ribosometronome 3y ago
        He's clearly referring to Android.
        realusername 3y ago
        Yes I know but it's not like Android is really opened either. Unless "patch your own rom if you are unhappy" counts.
  - pb7 3y ago
    What is the relationship between wanting them to lose billions and having that option? Sounds like you're just wishing harm on the organization that gave you this platform in the first place.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      If giving the user more power over software installation hurts Apple, then I guess I am wishing them harm. If Apple's approach was without harm though, they wouldn't have been targeted by European regulators with the DMA in the first place.
      - pb7 3y ago
        That's not what the original comment said though. The comment was about companies losing money, not about gaining certain freedoms.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        I didn't write that comment :P My point was less related to the cause-and-effect, and more focused on the undeniable need for user control. Apple is the reason why the Digital Market Act exists - go read it, you'll very quickly realize that the language targets them. It also (rightfully) implicates Microsoft and Google, but it very explicitly paints Apple's relationship with the iPhone as a "Gatekeeper" situation. The reasoning should be obvious; OEMs don't deserve that level of control. Apple could implement all of their meaningful features competitively, as-is, without being the sole trusted distributor of iPhone apps. Plus, even if you love Apple and hate Europe, features like this let you meaningfully resist European mandates. If Europe demands that SMS apps have a backdoor (fancy that), Apple users would have options that aren't provided by Apple. In a world where FAANG is bought and owned by the US government and gets regularly subpoenaed for data, that might be an affordance you value.
        discard124 3y ago
        > If Europe demands that SMS apps have a backdoor (fancy that), Apple users would have options that aren't provided by Apple. This makes no sense. If Europe makes rules about backdoors or outlawing E2E, they will apply to every app store and every app, not just Apple.
- doctorpangloss 3y ago
  Who do you think pays for all of that?
anonymouse008 3y ago
We need to have a shared definition of rent seeking. Rent Seeking necessitates no economic value creation. I struggle to objectively see Apple's AppStore as a merchant of record deriving no economic value. Same for their subscription management, inclusive of refunds, fraud detection, payment retries. Same for their IDE and development pipelines. CloudKit with automatic syncing and object management just built in via CoreData // SwiftData. Oh and discoverability via a single source of truth for Apps. And numerous more... I would encourage anyone to try doing a fully 1:1 app in both web and native iOS for good measure to judge for themselves. Perhaps you could say 30% is a 'premium'; however after 1 year it drops down to 15%... objectively, I struggle to characterize the dev ecosystem as 'rent-seeking'
- grishka 3y ago
  Apple acts as if the app store is the driving factor behind users installing apps when in many cases it's not. In many cases users install apps because of the developer's own marketing efforts while Apple did nothing at all to deserve to be an intermediary in this relationship. Most iOS developers I know don't see the app store as the godsend that Apple wants it to appear. On the contrary, they see it as an asinine obstacle they have to clear to reach their users. Mac app store has to compete with developers doing their own app distribution and we can see pretty clearly that its adoption is kinda meh.
  - etchalon 3y ago
    Apple doesn't believe the App Store is the driving factor for users installing applications. They believe the App Store is one part of the total value of the iOS platform, and one which they chose to monetize. And while the Mac App Store is a solid counter example to "do users value this?", the other counter-example is the Play Store, where, despite the availability of side-loading on Android, the Play Store is still, by far, the preferred way that users download and install applications on their Android device.
    - downWidOutaFite 3y ago
      In Epic's lawsuit against Google they argue that google makes sideloading unusable for businesses by making users jump through a bunch of hoops and scare screens.

I hope we see this act cut billions out of these platform rent seekers bottom lines

pb7 3y ago

Why?

smoldesu 3y ago
For one, it would return us to the status-quo where the user decides what to install on the hardware they own. That seems pretty important to me, even if you hate Europe or Apple.
- tinus_hn 3y ago
  If only there were hardware where you could install whatever you want. If only that hardware had a very large majority market share in the EU. Ah. One can dream.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Well, now it will be the only market in Europe. Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree.
  - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
    That would be nice, wouldn't it? I have a feeling the majority market share may have shifted a bit since 1999. (edit: I mean from PC to IOS and Android)
  - realusername 3y ago
    Like what? The Nokia N900 or the Pinephone? There's never been any realistic choice to make.
    - ribosometronome 3y ago
      He's clearly referring to Android.
      - realusername 3y ago
        Yes I know but it's not like Android is really opened either. Unless "patch your own rom if you are unhappy" counts.
- pb7 3y ago
  What is the relationship between wanting them to lose billions and having that option? Sounds like you're just wishing harm on the organization that gave you this platform in the first place.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    If giving the user more power over software installation hurts Apple, then I guess I am wishing them harm. If Apple's approach was without harm though, they wouldn't have been targeted by European regulators with the DMA in the first place.
    - pb7 3y ago
      That's not what the original comment said though. The comment was about companies losing money, not about gaining certain freedoms.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        I didn't write that comment :P My point was less related to the cause-and-effect, and more focused on the undeniable need for user control. Apple is the reason why the Digital Market Act exists - go read it, you'll very quickly realize that the language targets them. It also (rightfully) implicates Microsoft and Google, but it very explicitly paints Apple's relationship with the iPhone as a "Gatekeeper" situation. The reasoning should be obvious; OEMs don't deserve that level of control. Apple could implement all of their meaningful features competitively, as-is, without being the sole trusted distributor of iPhone apps. Plus, even if you love Apple and hate Europe, features like this let you meaningfully resist European mandates. If Europe demands that SMS apps have a backdoor (fancy that), Apple users would have options that aren't provided by Apple. In a world where FAANG is bought and owned by the US government and gets regularly subpoenaed for data, that might be an affordance you value.
        discard124 3y ago
        > If Europe demands that SMS apps have a backdoor (fancy that), Apple users would have options that aren't provided by Apple. This makes no sense. If Europe makes rules about backdoors or outlawing E2E, they will apply to every app store and every app, not just Apple.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
Who do you think pays for all of that?

anonymouse008 3y ago

We need to have a shared definition of rent seeking. Rent Seeking necessitates no economic value creation. I struggle to objectively see Apple's AppStore as a merchant of record deriving no economic value. Same for their subscription management, inclusive of refunds, fraud detection, payment retries. Same for their IDE and development pipelines. CloudKit with automatic syncing and object management just built in via CoreData // SwiftData. Oh and discoverability via a single source of truth for Apps. And numerous more... I would encourage anyone to try doing a fully 1:1 app in both web and native iOS for good measure to judge for themselves. Perhaps you could say 30% is a 'premium'; however after 1 year it drops down to 15%... objectively, I struggle to characterize the dev ecosystem as 'rent-seeking'

grishka 3y ago
Apple acts as if the app store is the driving factor behind users installing apps when in many cases it's not. In many cases users install apps because of the developer's own marketing efforts while Apple did nothing at all to deserve to be an intermediary in this relationship. Most iOS developers I know don't see the app store as the godsend that Apple wants it to appear. On the contrary, they see it as an asinine obstacle they have to clear to reach their users. Mac app store has to compete with developers doing their own app distribution and we can see pretty clearly that its adoption is kinda meh.
- etchalon 3y ago
  Apple doesn't believe the App Store is the driving factor for users installing applications. They believe the App Store is one part of the total value of the iOS platform, and one which they chose to monetize. And while the Mac App Store is a solid counter example to "do users value this?", the other counter-example is the Play Store, where, despite the availability of side-loading on Android, the Play Store is still, by far, the preferred way that users download and install applications on their Android device.
  - downWidOutaFite 3y ago
    In Epic's lawsuit against Google they argue that google makes sideloading unusable for businesses by making users jump through a bunch of hoops and scare screens.