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But it’s ok US workers, outsourcing manufacturing is a “good idea”, so good that the other major economies are doing the opposite.

stochastimus 3y ago
Genuinely curious, HN folks - for those who downvoted this comment, can you share why you did so? I don’t personally mind sarcasm as long as it’s not aimed maliciously at an individual, and I read this comment as a sarcastic way of saying “how come American leadership in general doesn’t have a similar plan”. Do folks just downvote sarcasm as a rule?
- Kye 3y ago
  It's just inaccurate. The US has been working on insourcing since at least the Obama administration. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/01/11/everything-you-need-know-about-insourcing https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/01/11/everyth... I'm in the area with the very Caterpillar plant mentioned there.
  - Dig1t 3y ago
    You can also find some quotes from Obama saying “those jobs are just not coming back”. The tiny amount of manufacturing they have tried (and mostly failed) to bring back pales in comparison to what the US used to produce.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      I’ve never studied economics so there is a very good chance I’m reading the plot wrong somehow, but it looks like US manufacturing has been increasing since the 70’s at least. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/tags/series?t=manufacturing%3Bquarterly https://fred.stlouisfed.org/tags/series?t=manufacturing%3Bqu... It takes up less of the economy of maybe, and we might focus on upscale things that have less consumer visibility like industrial stuff, but manufacturing in the US seems to be in an OK spot.
      - Kye 3y ago
        It does seem like a situation where the pie just grew around it. There are so many kinds of job now. Even manufacturing is skilled work, more than it ever was. Their skill might be the ins and outs of a particular machine (like one of those big green injection molding machines), but it's as skilled as any kind of office work.
        bee_rider 3y ago
        Yes. Also the rest of the world’s pie grew, which is also fine. The US made everything… for a while, after the rest of the world had blown up all of each other’s factories. Nobody is hoping for a repeat of that whole mess!
- fsflover 3y ago
  I didn't downvote, but: Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  It’s lazy and inaccurate both on trends and policy direction
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hikingsimulator 3y ago
  I don't have the ability to downvote yet but I can pitch in an explanation: Setting China as an outlier that does reshoring/industrial planning at the expense of the [American] worker is a politic fantasy. It forgets that reshoring is a global phenomenon also found in democracies [1] that is rather the result of a more uncertain world where logistics change with the success and wanning of political favors and alliances. [1] https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/economic-diplomacy-foreign-trade/promoting-france-s-attractiveness/france-relance-recovery-plan-building-the-france-of-2030/ https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/econ...
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  As I mentioned in another comment, this view is skewed. Even China has lost more jobs to automation than the US has lost to China. There will just be fewer and fewer jobs in manufacturing, no matter where it's done. Further, from a purely economic sense, outsourcing makes the most sense. Most people will be able to by everything for much cheaper which more than compensates for the lost jobs in one area. We also have record high employment. So from a purely economic perspective, we are doing great! To me the real issue is the strategic importance of certain manufacturing areas. China can build 200 military ships in the time we build one. 20 subs in the time we build slightly more than one. We need to get our military supply chain back in shape if we want to remain globally dominant and keep us and our partners safe!
- stochastimus 3y ago
  I got downvoted 2 points for asking this question LoL
throwawaysleep 3y ago
Manufacturing is low value commodity work. If for some reason a country has lots of low value commodity bodies to screw things on, then focusing on manufacturing makes sense. But if you want a high standard of living, you need to have high productivity. That is incompatible with humans working assembly lines as they simply aren't that productive. The US economy is the world leader and continues to pull ahead of everyone else. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/04/13/the-lessons-from-americas-astonishing-economic-record https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/04/13/the-lessons-fro...
- arroz 3y ago
  Companies all over the world are having supply chain issues and you comment this lol
- wk_end 3y ago
  This take seems incompatible with the general prosperity nations that focus on manufacturing experience - look at the major economies of the 20th century, or of China’s booming wealth roughly commensurate with the stagnation developed nations are experiencing as they’ve outsourced manufacturing to China.
  - mattnewton 3y ago
    The apparent paradox is easily explained by the fact that China and the west are not starting from the same place, the average US worker is far wealthier since they have already gone through widespread industrialization. Manufacturing will show massive % gains on a smaller economy, but the kinds of labor that lifts you from a poor argriculturally eventually top out. That’s what this “made in China” initiative is tracking - moving up the value chain in China.
    - wk_end 3y ago
      Had the US not already gone through widespread industrialization by the 1950s, the supposed golden age of American industry and prosperity?
xboxnolifes 3y ago
I don't think I've ever met a blue collar worker who has thought outsourcing was a good idea. So, maybe the generalization of us worker is a bit too encompassing.
- georgeplusplus 3y ago
  Maybe they didn't outright say it the way you posit. But when Walmart came to town in early 2000s, people happily supported it with open arms. Bragging about how cheap they were getting stuff while the mom and pop stores and local sourced department stores folded one by one So their money certainly said it.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    Yes people have to stretch their money as far as possible. Not everyone makes six figures and has zero kids. People working at factories with families have to make economically smart decisions. It’s a failure of government policy, that frankly hinges on treason, that we even allowed for our small towns and manufacturing base to be hollowed out. No worker ever supported this, it was the intellectual and moneyed class that pushed for this and sold it as some obviously great thing that definitely wasn’t too good to be true.
    - georgeplusplus 3y ago
      >>> People working at factories with families have to make economically smart decisions. The poor and lower class alone didn't make Walmart a retail titan. It was the middle class who launched walmart into the top spot and fortunately for them, compared to their lower income peers, they did not have to make those life or death cost saving decisions but chose to like when they wanted a new flat screen TV or niche kitchen appliance These purchases werent truly necessary and id even argue whatever perihperal like a tv and kitchen aplliance they had owned was in working condition, maybe not the top of the line cutting edge device. So this wasn't truly a needed product except for upgrading for the sake of upgrading that the middle class started splurging on the idea of a discount being presented. During that time, as TVs improved year over year I knew several families who would trade theirs in for the yearly imorovement almost like an iPhone upgrade.

stochastimus 3y ago

Genuinely curious, HN folks - for those who downvoted this comment, can you share why you did so? I don’t personally mind sarcasm as long as it’s not aimed maliciously at an individual, and I read this comment as a sarcastic way of saying “how come American leadership in general doesn’t have a similar plan”. Do folks just downvote sarcasm as a rule?

Kye 3y ago
It's just inaccurate. The US has been working on insourcing since at least the Obama administration. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/01/11/everything-you-need-know-about-insourcing https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/01/11/everyth... I'm in the area with the very Caterpillar plant mentioned there.
- Dig1t 3y ago
  You can also find some quotes from Obama saying “those jobs are just not coming back”. The tiny amount of manufacturing they have tried (and mostly failed) to bring back pales in comparison to what the US used to produce.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    I’ve never studied economics so there is a very good chance I’m reading the plot wrong somehow, but it looks like US manufacturing has been increasing since the 70’s at least. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/tags/series?t=manufacturing%3Bquarterly https://fred.stlouisfed.org/tags/series?t=manufacturing%3Bqu... It takes up less of the economy of maybe, and we might focus on upscale things that have less consumer visibility like industrial stuff, but manufacturing in the US seems to be in an OK spot.
    - Kye 3y ago
      It does seem like a situation where the pie just grew around it. There are so many kinds of job now. Even manufacturing is skilled work, more than it ever was. Their skill might be the ins and outs of a particular machine (like one of those big green injection molding machines), but it's as skilled as any kind of office work.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        Yes. Also the rest of the world’s pie grew, which is also fine. The US made everything… for a while, after the rest of the world had blown up all of each other’s factories. Nobody is hoping for a repeat of that whole mess!
fsflover 3y ago
I didn't downvote, but: Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jncfhnb 3y ago
It’s lazy and inaccurate both on trends and policy direction
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hikingsimulator 3y ago
I don't have the ability to downvote yet but I can pitch in an explanation: Setting China as an outlier that does reshoring/industrial planning at the expense of the [American] worker is a politic fantasy. It forgets that reshoring is a global phenomenon also found in democracies [1] that is rather the result of a more uncertain world where logistics change with the success and wanning of political favors and alliances. [1] https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/economic-diplomacy-foreign-trade/promoting-france-s-attractiveness/france-relance-recovery-plan-building-the-france-of-2030/ https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/econ...
ajmurmann 3y ago
As I mentioned in another comment, this view is skewed. Even China has lost more jobs to automation than the US has lost to China. There will just be fewer and fewer jobs in manufacturing, no matter where it's done. Further, from a purely economic sense, outsourcing makes the most sense. Most people will be able to by everything for much cheaper which more than compensates for the lost jobs in one area. We also have record high employment. So from a purely economic perspective, we are doing great! To me the real issue is the strategic importance of certain manufacturing areas. China can build 200 military ships in the time we build one. 20 subs in the time we build slightly more than one. We need to get our military supply chain back in shape if we want to remain globally dominant and keep us and our partners safe!
stochastimus 3y ago
I got downvoted 2 points for asking this question LoL

throwawaysleep 3y ago

Manufacturing is low value commodity work. If for some reason a country has lots of low value commodity bodies to screw things on, then focusing on manufacturing makes sense. But if you want a high standard of living, you need to have high productivity. That is incompatible with humans working assembly lines as they simply aren't that productive. The US economy is the world leader and continues to pull ahead of everyone else. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/04/13/the-lessons-from-americas-astonishing-economic-record https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/04/13/the-lessons-fro...

arroz 3y ago
Companies all over the world are having supply chain issues and you comment this lol
wk_end 3y ago
This take seems incompatible with the general prosperity nations that focus on manufacturing experience - look at the major economies of the 20th century, or of China’s booming wealth roughly commensurate with the stagnation developed nations are experiencing as they’ve outsourced manufacturing to China.
- mattnewton 3y ago
  The apparent paradox is easily explained by the fact that China and the west are not starting from the same place, the average US worker is far wealthier since they have already gone through widespread industrialization. Manufacturing will show massive % gains on a smaller economy, but the kinds of labor that lifts you from a poor argriculturally eventually top out. That’s what this “made in China” initiative is tracking - moving up the value chain in China.
  - wk_end 3y ago
    Had the US not already gone through widespread industrialization by the 1950s, the supposed golden age of American industry and prosperity?

xboxnolifes 3y ago

I don't think I've ever met a blue collar worker who has thought outsourcing was a good idea. So, maybe the generalization of us worker is a bit too encompassing.

georgeplusplus 3y ago
Maybe they didn't outright say it the way you posit. But when Walmart came to town in early 2000s, people happily supported it with open arms. Bragging about how cheap they were getting stuff while the mom and pop stores and local sourced department stores folded one by one So their money certainly said it.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Yes people have to stretch their money as far as possible. Not everyone makes six figures and has zero kids. People working at factories with families have to make economically smart decisions. It’s a failure of government policy, that frankly hinges on treason, that we even allowed for our small towns and manufacturing base to be hollowed out. No worker ever supported this, it was the intellectual and moneyed class that pushed for this and sold it as some obviously great thing that definitely wasn’t too good to be true.
  - georgeplusplus 3y ago
    >>> People working at factories with families have to make economically smart decisions. The poor and lower class alone didn't make Walmart a retail titan. It was the middle class who launched walmart into the top spot and fortunately for them, compared to their lower income peers, they did not have to make those life or death cost saving decisions but chose to like when they wanted a new flat screen TV or niche kitchen appliance These purchases werent truly necessary and id even argue whatever perihperal like a tv and kitchen aplliance they had owned was in working condition, maybe not the top of the line cutting edge device. So this wasn't truly a needed product except for upgrading for the sake of upgrading that the middle class started splurging on the idea of a discount being presented. During that time, as TVs improved year over year I knew several families who would trade theirs in for the yearly imorovement almost like an iPhone upgrade.