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Even if you are right, the solution is not to mandate racial discrimination. As for the subsidies, the way they work is, roughly, the government offers you a c

Even if you are right, the solution is not to mandate racial discrimination. As for the subsidies, the way they work is, roughly, the government offers you a certain amount of money to build an area, and if you don't, they either give you an extension or fine you or take the money back or some mixture of the three. There's also been reverse auction type approaches, where the government takes bids for people to build out to an area and awards the subsidy to the lowest bidder. It's not like the government just cuts AT&T a $10 billion check and says go forth and build broadband where you see fit. If you have a problem with how the subsidies work, then redesign them.

CharlesW 3y ago
FWIW, the article doesn't mention race at all, and the paper you linked to mentions race as one of several factors, the leading factor apparently being income level.
- appleskeptic 3y ago
  >the paper you linked to mentions race as one of several factors, the leading factor apparently being income level That's not a "paper", it's the final rule that the FCC adopted. And it applies to race, ethnicity, religion, and income level equally.
banannaise 3y ago
Requiring that a utility provide equal service to everyone within a reasonable standard of feasibility is not racial discrimination.
- appleskeptic 3y ago
  >Requiring that a utility provide equal service to everyone within a reasonable standard of feasibility is not racial discrimination. That's right, but that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if your business decision, totally unbeknownst to you, has a disparate impact on a particular racial/ethnic/religious/income group, then you're in violation.
  - banannaise 3y ago
    > totally unbeknownst to you If you have enough data to reliably identify your most profitable neighborhoods, I guarantee that data tells you something about their demographics. Any ignorance of disparate impacts, whether on racial lines or wealth or anything else, is willful.
    - zmgsabst 3y ago
      Mandating every business decision is made with a racialized lens is a path to rebuilding systemic racism, not a means to end it.
      - nerdponx 3y ago
        The FCC rule mentions several attributes, race being only one: > The rules define “digital discrimination of access” as “Policies or practices, not justified by genuine issues of technical or economic feasibility, that (1) differentially impact consumers’ access to broadband internet access service based on their income level, race, ethnicity, color, religion or national origin, or (2) are intended to have such differential impact.” As the law requires, the FCC will consider arguments that legitimate business impediments preclude equal access to broadband service in particular communities. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-398477A1.txt https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-398477A1.txt I doubt people would have the same reaction if they realized it was primarily about income and not race. But everyone loves to talk about race.
        appleskeptic 3y ago
        That's not how this works. It's not about income any more than it is about race. Racial disparate impact is enough for the FCC to fine you to oblivion. The fact that it's listed after "income" does not change that.
      - cbsmith 3y ago
        First, let's be real here: it's not a mandate that every business decision be made with a racialized lens. It's a mandate that business decisions consider their potential impact on systemically disenfranchised groups that we no longer wish to have systemically disenfranchised. I think your claim that this is a path to rebuilding systemic racism and not a means to end it is a misunderstanding of the "systemic" aspect of systemic racism. Because it is systemic, the system itself will naturally reinforce the impact of the racism unless significant counter forces are applied against it. The fact that a business making decisions to deploy resources geographically to maximize revenue (for services that ought to have nothing to do with race) might reasonably worry that they might unintentionally lead to an impact that has a discernible racial bias, is a demonstration of exactly this phenomena. So no, you're not going to end it by making decisions ignoring systemic disenfranchisement. To end it, you are definitely going to have to be mindful of how the system might have impacts that reflect (and thereby amplify) the bias of the system, not the decision.
hansvm 3y ago
It sounds a bit to me like they're just trying to get a baseline level of coverage everywhere (none of this 400kbps, 2000ms ping nonsense you see in some poorer neighborhoods), and race is a decent way to gain the political traction necessary to make it happen.
- Deprecate9151 3y ago
  The focus on race seems to be mostly coming from commenters here. The definition of digital discrimination in the rule reads "Policies or practices, not justified by genuine issues of technical or economic feasibility, that (1) differentially impact consumers’ access to broadband internet access service based on their income level, race, ethnicity, color, religion or national origin or (2) are intended to have such differential impact." Racial discrimination and redlining correlating with poor access to broadband was a factor in the analysis, but they also looked at rural/urban access splits and income disparity related lack of access too. I haven't read through the whole thing yet, it's very long, but the emphasis seems to be on forcing telecoms to build out access in areas that are historically underserved when the reason is they would make less money (different than 'at a loss') rather than serving an area with existing access that might present better margins.
  - tbrownaw 3y ago
    > The focus on race seems to be mostly coming from commenters here. The linked article starts by drawing comparisons to redlining in the very first paragraph.
    - Deprecate9151 3y ago
      The article uses the comparison, but the actual FCC rule and approach is not entirely race based as multiple commenters seem to be framing it.
- Auracle 3y ago
  I very much doubt that focusing on race will help the more rural areas.
btilly 3y ago
The word "roughly" is doing some heavy lifting here. There is a long history of telecoms getting subsidies under terms like what you say, failing to do what they are supposed to, not being punished for it (I suspect corruption from regulatory capture), and then pushing for more subsidies for the problem. Admittedly this comes with a certain amount of showy punishments and appropriate prostration of telecom execs. However that amounts to a slap on the wrist, and then business as usual. Given that this cycle has been going on for decades, there is every reason to believe that this is just another round.

CharlesW 3y ago

FWIW, the article doesn't mention race at all, and the paper you linked to mentions race as one of several factors, the leading factor apparently being income level.

appleskeptic 3y ago
>the paper you linked to mentions race as one of several factors, the leading factor apparently being income level That's not a "paper", it's the final rule that the FCC adopted. And it applies to race, ethnicity, religion, and income level equally.

banannaise 3y ago

Requiring that a utility provide equal service to everyone within a reasonable standard of feasibility is not racial discrimination.

appleskeptic 3y ago
>Requiring that a utility provide equal service to everyone within a reasonable standard of feasibility is not racial discrimination. That's right, but that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if your business decision, totally unbeknownst to you, has a disparate impact on a particular racial/ethnic/religious/income group, then you're in violation.
- banannaise 3y ago
  > totally unbeknownst to you If you have enough data to reliably identify your most profitable neighborhoods, I guarantee that data tells you something about their demographics. Any ignorance of disparate impacts, whether on racial lines or wealth or anything else, is willful.
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    Mandating every business decision is made with a racialized lens is a path to rebuilding systemic racism, not a means to end it.
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      The FCC rule mentions several attributes, race being only one: > The rules define “digital discrimination of access” as “Policies or practices, not justified by genuine issues of technical or economic feasibility, that (1) differentially impact consumers’ access to broadband internet access service based on their income level, race, ethnicity, color, religion or national origin, or (2) are intended to have such differential impact.” As the law requires, the FCC will consider arguments that legitimate business impediments preclude equal access to broadband service in particular communities. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-398477A1.txt https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-398477A1.txt I doubt people would have the same reaction if they realized it was primarily about income and not race. But everyone loves to talk about race.
      - appleskeptic 3y ago
        That's not how this works. It's not about income any more than it is about race. Racial disparate impact is enough for the FCC to fine you to oblivion. The fact that it's listed after "income" does not change that.
    - cbsmith 3y ago
      First, let's be real here: it's not a mandate that every business decision be made with a racialized lens. It's a mandate that business decisions consider their potential impact on systemically disenfranchised groups that we no longer wish to have systemically disenfranchised. I think your claim that this is a path to rebuilding systemic racism and not a means to end it is a misunderstanding of the "systemic" aspect of systemic racism. Because it is systemic, the system itself will naturally reinforce the impact of the racism unless significant counter forces are applied against it. The fact that a business making decisions to deploy resources geographically to maximize revenue (for services that ought to have nothing to do with race) might reasonably worry that they might unintentionally lead to an impact that has a discernible racial bias, is a demonstration of exactly this phenomena. So no, you're not going to end it by making decisions ignoring systemic disenfranchisement. To end it, you are definitely going to have to be mindful of how the system might have impacts that reflect (and thereby amplify) the bias of the system, not the decision.

hansvm 3y ago

It sounds a bit to me like they're just trying to get a baseline level of coverage everywhere (none of this 400kbps, 2000ms ping nonsense you see in some poorer neighborhoods), and race is a decent way to gain the political traction necessary to make it happen.

Deprecate9151 3y ago
The focus on race seems to be mostly coming from commenters here. The definition of digital discrimination in the rule reads "Policies or practices, not justified by genuine issues of technical or economic feasibility, that (1) differentially impact consumers’ access to broadband internet access service based on their income level, race, ethnicity, color, religion or national origin or (2) are intended to have such differential impact." Racial discrimination and redlining correlating with poor access to broadband was a factor in the analysis, but they also looked at rural/urban access splits and income disparity related lack of access too. I haven't read through the whole thing yet, it's very long, but the emphasis seems to be on forcing telecoms to build out access in areas that are historically underserved when the reason is they would make less money (different than 'at a loss') rather than serving an area with existing access that might present better margins.
- tbrownaw 3y ago
  > The focus on race seems to be mostly coming from commenters here. The linked article starts by drawing comparisons to redlining in the very first paragraph.
  - Deprecate9151 3y ago
    The article uses the comparison, but the actual FCC rule and approach is not entirely race based as multiple commenters seem to be framing it.
Auracle 3y ago
I very much doubt that focusing on race will help the more rural areas.

btilly 3y ago

The word "roughly" is doing some heavy lifting here. There is a long history of telecoms getting subsidies under terms like what you say, failing to do what they are supposed to, not being punished for it (I suspect corruption from regulatory capture), and then pushing for more subsidies for the problem. Admittedly this comes with a certain amount of showy punishments and appropriate prostration of telecom execs. However that amounts to a slap on the wrist, and then business as usual. Given that this cycle has been going on for decades, there is every reason to believe that this is just another round.