3 ms·

> Flatpak is one of those pieces of software that's clearly made by people with nice computers on fast internet But like, it's 2023... Having that requirement

> Flatpak is one of those pieces of software that's clearly made by people with nice computers on fast internet But like, it's 2023... Having that requirement isn't a hard sell. Especially considering the base of Windows and macOS have fancy requirements as a base. Also, Flatpak allows for lib dependencies to avoid duplicate libraries from filling up your disk. Not really sure what else you expect.

bheadmaster 3y ago
> Also, Flatpak allows for lib dependencies to avoid duplicate libraries from filling up your disk. Not really sure what else you expect. Assuming that the app developers play nice and all agree to use the same (latest?) version of the libraries. In which case Flatpack becomes just a clone of Debian/Arch. If app developers don't play nice (which is most likely), Flatpack becomes more of a bloated version of Nix/Guix.
- nani8ot 3y ago
  Part of this "bloat" is sandboxing, which is the main feature I recommend anyone to use flatpak for apps like Discord or Zoom.
josefx 3y ago
> But like, it's 2023... Having that requirement isn't a hard sell. I know several people who are on a shitty data limited connection. Their internet becomes basically unusable after a windows update tore through it. Hell the company I work for still hasn't found anyone willing to replace its ancient line with anything remotely modern and the multi connection + mobile network workarounds we have going breaks down the moment there is even a drop of water in the air. 2023 just like the years before it is a year where the network providers don't give a shit about decent service.
- 9cb14c1ec0 3y ago
  There are still plenty of people who do not have access to fiber or even cable. I am one of them. I have a single flatpack app installed, and I rarely apply available updates because each update weighs in at close to 1 GB.
- trealira 3y ago
  Yeah, I have a friend whose family switched from dial-up internet to DSL only in the mid-2010s.
myaccountonhn 3y ago
> But like, it's 2023... Having that requirement isn't a hard sell. Especially considering the base of Windows and macOS have fancy requirements as a base. I think this is a sad attitude, when software actually has quite a high carbon footprint[1] on par with the aviation industry. There is so much old hardware that would work just fine if we actually cared to make software that works for them. I think new software should lower the requirement, and better hardware should mean faster software, not that developers can get wasteful. [1] https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/ai-internet-carbon-footprint/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/ai-internet-carbon-fo...
- trealira 3y ago
  There was a video from Twitter shared on HN a while back of Windows 95 or 98 (I don't remember which) running on a modern computer, and all programs and menus loaded instantly when clicked, not like now where there's often a small delay. It would be great if better hardeware meant the same thing but snappier, rather than the same thing but more inefficient. However, that speed came at the cost of laborious optimization for the low-end computers of the time and millions of dollars spent by Microsoft debugging defective C and assembly code within Windows. The only way to force software to be more efficient would be some sort of cap on how inefficient software were allowed to be, which doesn't seem possible. At most, you can have a carbon tax, or increase taxes on electricity use, indirectly incentivizing the use of energy-efficient software.
  - myaccountonhn 3y ago
    Another way can be to try to lower the bar to write performant code. For example, the work in languages like Rust, Nim, Hare and Roc might also unlock capabilities to write low-level performant code with the same productivity as high-level languages. I def. agree though tat a carbon tax to force companies to be more frugal would help too. I've heard too many times to not think about optimization and just throw more hardware at problems, I think that's a mentality we really need to start questioning.
    - trealira 3y ago

bheadmaster 3y ago

> Also, Flatpak allows for lib dependencies to avoid duplicate libraries from filling up your disk. Not really sure what else you expect. Assuming that the app developers play nice and all agree to use the same (latest?) version of the libraries. In which case Flatpack becomes just a clone of Debian/Arch. If app developers don't play nice (which is most likely), Flatpack becomes more of a bloated version of Nix/Guix.

nani8ot 3y ago
Part of this "bloat" is sandboxing, which is the main feature I recommend anyone to use flatpak for apps like Discord or Zoom.

josefx 3y ago

> But like, it's 2023... Having that requirement isn't a hard sell. I know several people who are on a shitty data limited connection. Their internet becomes basically unusable after a windows update tore through it. Hell the company I work for still hasn't found anyone willing to replace its ancient line with anything remotely modern and the multi connection + mobile network workarounds we have going breaks down the moment there is even a drop of water in the air. 2023 just like the years before it is a year where the network providers don't give a shit about decent service.

9cb14c1ec0 3y ago
There are still plenty of people who do not have access to fiber or even cable. I am one of them. I have a single flatpack app installed, and I rarely apply available updates because each update weighs in at close to 1 GB.
trealira 3y ago
Yeah, I have a friend whose family switched from dial-up internet to DSL only in the mid-2010s.

myaccountonhn 3y ago

> But like, it's 2023... Having that requirement isn't a hard sell. Especially considering the base of Windows and macOS have fancy requirements as a base. I think this is a sad attitude, when software actually has quite a high carbon footprint[1] on par with the aviation industry. There is so much old hardware that would work just fine if we actually cared to make software that works for them. I think new software should lower the requirement, and better hardware should mean faster software, not that developers can get wasteful. [1] https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/ai-internet-carbon-footprint/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/ai-internet-carbon-fo...

trealira 3y ago
There was a video from Twitter shared on HN a while back of Windows 95 or 98 (I don't remember which) running on a modern computer, and all programs and menus loaded instantly when clicked, not like now where there's often a small delay. It would be great if better hardeware meant the same thing but snappier, rather than the same thing but more inefficient. However, that speed came at the cost of laborious optimization for the low-end computers of the time and millions of dollars spent by Microsoft debugging defective C and assembly code within Windows. The only way to force software to be more efficient would be some sort of cap on how inefficient software were allowed to be, which doesn't seem possible. At most, you can have a carbon tax, or increase taxes on electricity use, indirectly incentivizing the use of energy-efficient software.
- myaccountonhn 3y ago
  Another way can be to try to lower the bar to write performant code. For example, the work in languages like Rust, Nim, Hare and Roc might also unlock capabilities to write low-level performant code with the same productivity as high-level languages. I def. agree though tat a carbon tax to force companies to be more frugal would help too. I've heard too many times to not think about optimization and just throw more hardware at problems, I think that's a mentality we really need to start questioning.
  - trealira 3y ago