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Meanwhile many Portuguese cars are 25+ years old and a portion of them have black exhaust fumes that stink from a 100 meters. As in: proper black smoke coming o

Meanwhile many Portuguese cars are 25+ years old and a portion of them have black exhaust fumes that stink from a 100 meters. As in: proper black smoke coming out of the exhaust as it drives. I don’t know if there are SMOG tests, and if there are, they’re clearly not enforced. The reality in poorer countries is that pollution reduction is not as much a priority as saving money. So yeah, I mean, I always find it funny when Portugal is presented like this ecological example. Again, it’s not “their fault,” it’s poverty, but let’s not fool anyone here. There are also piles of old furniture, concrete, and other construction materials that people are just in the habit of dumping on the side of the road in most rural areas.

adrianN 3y ago
So you're saying renewables are so cheap now that poor countries that only care about saving money build a ton of them? That sounds like excellent news to me.
- louison11 3y ago
  PT used to be very energy dependent due to not having much local fossil fuel. They had to import most of it. Simultaneously, they have a lot of sun, a lot of wind, and the tide. Also turns out it’s warm so they don’t need all that much power. So yeah, renewables are optimal for them in this specific scenario. That’s definitely a positive thing. It’s good PR but I just find it relevant to point out that it’s not necessarily an “example” beyond that. But yeah, they are getting cheaper. They’re just particularly cheap for a country with great weather and wind with low consumption.
vasco 3y ago
I could say the same about country side France, Spain, Italy, all of the Balcans including Greece and keep going, including the USA as well. This feels like typical intra-euro "they are poor" so we must be dirty stereotypes reminiscent of the times when we got called PIGS. For your information the EU average fleet age is 11.8 years, Portugal stands at 13.2 and France at 10.3. Perhaps not the story you're trying to tell.
- louison11 3y ago
  Bom dia meu vizinho. I understand that you disliked my comment. I live in Portugal, and I have lived in France and US as well. I’m sorry to say that people trashing stuff in nature is far worse here than these other countries. You don’t see people dumping fridges or old bathtubs in nature there. I see it in Algarve, Alentejo, outside Lisbon… that + the poop everywhere on the street, I’m sorry man but people don’t have the same standard for respecting nature and keeping the streets clean. Doesn’t mean anything about the people themselves, people are very nice and considerate to each other. I think that’s alright to recognize flaws though. I mean, 13.2 vs 10.3 is quite a big difference - and that doesn’t address the fact that a lot of these old ‘95 trucks or weird scooter-truck things have pitch dark exhaust fumes and are driving around like nothing’s going on. I’m pretty sure you’d get pulled over by cops and forced to fix your car in France or US. It’s not legal in these countries to drive cars like that. Again, I get that people don’t have the money to get a newer car, I’m not blaming them. Just noting that while the electricity is clean, a lot of progress remains needed in other parts of the economy.
  - vasco 3y ago
    I too have lived different places and also have traveled a bit, I don't think travelling credentials are needed to identify someone who is living by stereotypes though. If you want I can send you many pictures of my travels in France so we compare the number of abandoned tractors, completely trashed banlieues and so on. Or I can send you pictures of how Dutch people every week have a day where they dump trash in the sidewalk, the same fridges and old moldy furniture that you speak of, all around the city, or all the bicycles and trash in canals. Or about all the human shit in Paris homeless encanpments that are worse than dog poop in the street of Lisbon, etc. Obviously I'm a bit defensive, and of course every country has people who don't care, and maybe there's even more in portugal than other places, which I'm glad to accept if you have any data, but you didn't present any data, just your stereotypes based on anecdata.
wtcactus 3y ago
Why do I need a new car if mine is working just fine? I don't get it how common sense went so much out of the window when discussing these issues, that people are now effectively arguing that's more environmentally sound, to build an whole new car, then to use an older one. It's just blatant propaganda.
- vasco 3y ago
  With most items it's blatant propaganda (env friendly clothes when you already have clothes, throwing away plastic bags to use reusable ones, etc), but with cars while there's also propaganda it heavily depends on usage. Replacing commercial fleets that are involved in shipping, deliveries, mass transporation etc will be net positive for the environment very fast. Buying an electric car if you have an existing car and don't drive a huge amount per year might never pay off as a private person though. Again it really depends on how much you drive and what the difference is between old and new. I'd bet for most regular people it doesn't make sense to replace a car before it's useful life is up, while for companies it probably makes sense to replace ASAP. Probably not hard to create a calculator with car models and miles driven per year and establish which models make sense to replace and how soon.

adrianN 3y ago

So you're saying renewables are so cheap now that poor countries that only care about saving money build a ton of them? That sounds like excellent news to me.

louison11 3y ago
PT used to be very energy dependent due to not having much local fossil fuel. They had to import most of it. Simultaneously, they have a lot of sun, a lot of wind, and the tide. Also turns out it’s warm so they don’t need all that much power. So yeah, renewables are optimal for them in this specific scenario. That’s definitely a positive thing. It’s good PR but I just find it relevant to point out that it’s not necessarily an “example” beyond that. But yeah, they are getting cheaper. They’re just particularly cheap for a country with great weather and wind with low consumption.

vasco 3y ago

I could say the same about country side France, Spain, Italy, all of the Balcans including Greece and keep going, including the USA as well. This feels like typical intra-euro "they are poor" so we must be dirty stereotypes reminiscent of the times when we got called PIGS. For your information the EU average fleet age is 11.8 years, Portugal stands at 13.2 and France at 10.3. Perhaps not the story you're trying to tell.

louison11 3y ago
Bom dia meu vizinho. I understand that you disliked my comment. I live in Portugal, and I have lived in France and US as well. I’m sorry to say that people trashing stuff in nature is far worse here than these other countries. You don’t see people dumping fridges or old bathtubs in nature there. I see it in Algarve, Alentejo, outside Lisbon… that + the poop everywhere on the street, I’m sorry man but people don’t have the same standard for respecting nature and keeping the streets clean. Doesn’t mean anything about the people themselves, people are very nice and considerate to each other. I think that’s alright to recognize flaws though. I mean, 13.2 vs 10.3 is quite a big difference - and that doesn’t address the fact that a lot of these old ‘95 trucks or weird scooter-truck things have pitch dark exhaust fumes and are driving around like nothing’s going on. I’m pretty sure you’d get pulled over by cops and forced to fix your car in France or US. It’s not legal in these countries to drive cars like that. Again, I get that people don’t have the money to get a newer car, I’m not blaming them. Just noting that while the electricity is clean, a lot of progress remains needed in other parts of the economy.
- vasco 3y ago
  I too have lived different places and also have traveled a bit, I don't think travelling credentials are needed to identify someone who is living by stereotypes though. If you want I can send you many pictures of my travels in France so we compare the number of abandoned tractors, completely trashed banlieues and so on. Or I can send you pictures of how Dutch people every week have a day where they dump trash in the sidewalk, the same fridges and old moldy furniture that you speak of, all around the city, or all the bicycles and trash in canals. Or about all the human shit in Paris homeless encanpments that are worse than dog poop in the street of Lisbon, etc. Obviously I'm a bit defensive, and of course every country has people who don't care, and maybe there's even more in portugal than other places, which I'm glad to accept if you have any data, but you didn't present any data, just your stereotypes based on anecdata.

wtcactus 3y ago

Why do I need a new car if mine is working just fine? I don't get it how common sense went so much out of the window when discussing these issues, that people are now effectively arguing that's more environmentally sound, to build an whole new car, then to use an older one. It's just blatant propaganda.

vasco 3y ago
With most items it's blatant propaganda (env friendly clothes when you already have clothes, throwing away plastic bags to use reusable ones, etc), but with cars while there's also propaganda it heavily depends on usage. Replacing commercial fleets that are involved in shipping, deliveries, mass transporation etc will be net positive for the environment very fast. Buying an electric car if you have an existing car and don't drive a huge amount per year might never pay off as a private person though. Again it really depends on how much you drive and what the difference is between old and new. I'd bet for most regular people it doesn't make sense to replace a car before it's useful life is up, while for companies it probably makes sense to replace ASAP. Probably not hard to create a calculator with car models and miles driven per year and establish which models make sense to replace and how soon.