4 ms·

The money quote for me was "However, many magicians perform familiar tricks or variations of them without feeling the need to innovate.” It's true that i

by keyle 3y ago

The money quote for me was "However, many magicians perform familiar tricks or variations of them without feeling the need to innovate.” It's true that in our field, at least mine, we automate everything that can be automated, and are left with the hard problems, requiring to question everything including ourselves, on a daily basis. We're feeding ourselves that not good enough, every day. At least that's the way I interpreted the article. Something to be said about executing something with perfection without thinking too hard about it.

Alex3917 3y ago
> "However, many magicians perform familiar tricks or variations of them without feeling the need to innovate." Which makes these magicians craftspeople, rather than artists. Clearly some subset of magicians are actually artists, but the real takeaway is that neither the researcher nor the article author understand what makes something art. I mean by this standard, you could write literally the exact same article about Subway Sandwich Artists.
- eru 3y ago
  The article also says that magicians have less mental health trouble than the general population. As a null hypothesis, I would think that the Subway Sandwich Artist will score similar to the general population? Interestingly, the article says mathematicians also have less trouble. I guess they haven't looked into logicians, like Gödel or Russell or Cantor etc. This formal foundation of mathematics had a reputation for having mentally health challenged practitioners. Whether she attracts troubled souls or makes them, is not clear.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Why is it you feel that Bertrand Russell had mental health challenges? Georg Cantor may not have have been anymore mentally challenged than any other 40+ year old spending the last half of their life being loudly professionally mocked and called a charlatan, corrupter of youth, abomination in the eyes of God, etc. He copped a lot of flack for promoting unorhodox (at the time) thoughts about infinity. There are many many logicians and set theorists, only a few make the "whackiest intellectuals" list - I personally would class Russell as well balanced, Alonzo Church as quite sensible, Dana Scott as pretty solid, . . . etc.
    - eru 3y ago
      > Why is it you feel that Bertrand Russell had mental health challenges? Dim recollection from what I've read. But if you ask your favourite search engine for 'bertrand russell mental health' you'll get plenty of hits. Eg https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/29/reviews/010429.29nasart.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/29/r... or https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Fitzgerald-6/publication/276061936_Did_Bertrand_Russell_suffer_from_a_neurodevelopmental_disorder/links/5ed3fd8d458515294522a4ff/Did-Bertrand-Russell-suffer-from-a-neurodevelopmental-disorder.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Fitzgerald-6/pu... or https://medium.com/young-polymaths/in-their-20s-bertrand-russell-b2f7eeb594d1 https://medium.com/young-polymaths/in-their-20s-bertrand-rus... He also had quite the family history of madness (to use a contemporary term). Yes, for Cantor it's a bit harder to say. We can definitely find enough environmental triggers. (Not) coincidentally, I grew up close to whither they exiled Cantor. > There are many many logicians and set theorists, only a few make the "whackiest intellectuals" list - I personally would class Russell as well balanced, Alonzo Church as quite sensible, Dana Scott as pretty solid, . . . etc. Well, the problem is that no one on your list has an Umlaut in their name. If you want to do really important fundamental work, that's almost a requirement. Jokes aside, Raymond Smullyan was also a splendid fellow who did important work. And, a magician (and concert pianist), too. Just to come back to the topic of the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Smullyan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Smullyan
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
h2odragon 3y ago
> without feeling the need to innovate. the sibling comment mentions "craft vs art"; and thats valid. However, some may be pursuing a different craft (or art) than the illusion. Stupid stale stage magic makes a great framework for an original comedy routine, perhaps. The elegant craft of the "4 shows a day, 7 days a week" lounge act that is reliably entertaining for years is not something to lightly dismiss either. It extends to programming; that people who are not facing the hard problems everyday may well still be doing valid work. The Nth re-implementation of "strings for C that suck less" or "super tight circle drawing hack for today's hot hardware" can well be Art, and can well be worthy beyond their creator's joy (tho that alone is justification enough to make them).

by keyle 3y ago

Alex3917 3y ago

> "However, many magicians perform familiar tricks or variations of them without feeling the need to innovate." Which makes these magicians craftspeople, rather than artists. Clearly some subset of magicians are actually artists, but the real takeaway is that neither the researcher nor the article author understand what makes something art. I mean by this standard, you could write literally the exact same article about Subway Sandwich Artists.

eru 3y ago
The article also says that magicians have less mental health trouble than the general population. As a null hypothesis, I would think that the Subway Sandwich Artist will score similar to the general population? Interestingly, the article says mathematicians also have less trouble. I guess they haven't looked into logicians, like Gödel or Russell or Cantor etc. This formal foundation of mathematics had a reputation for having mentally health challenged practitioners. Whether she attracts troubled souls or makes them, is not clear.
- defrost 3y ago
  Why is it you feel that Bertrand Russell had mental health challenges? Georg Cantor may not have have been anymore mentally challenged than any other 40+ year old spending the last half of their life being loudly professionally mocked and called a charlatan, corrupter of youth, abomination in the eyes of God, etc. He copped a lot of flack for promoting unorhodox (at the time) thoughts about infinity. There are many many logicians and set theorists, only a few make the "whackiest intellectuals" list - I personally would class Russell as well balanced, Alonzo Church as quite sensible, Dana Scott as pretty solid, . . . etc.
  - eru 3y ago
    > Why is it you feel that Bertrand Russell had mental health challenges? Dim recollection from what I've read. But if you ask your favourite search engine for 'bertrand russell mental health' you'll get plenty of hits. Eg https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/29/reviews/010429.29nasart.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/29/r... or https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Fitzgerald-6/publication/276061936_Did_Bertrand_Russell_suffer_from_a_neurodevelopmental_disorder/links/5ed3fd8d458515294522a4ff/Did-Bertrand-Russell-suffer-from-a-neurodevelopmental-disorder.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Fitzgerald-6/pu... or https://medium.com/young-polymaths/in-their-20s-bertrand-russell-b2f7eeb594d1 https://medium.com/young-polymaths/in-their-20s-bertrand-rus... He also had quite the family history of madness (to use a contemporary term). Yes, for Cantor it's a bit harder to say. We can definitely find enough environmental triggers. (Not) coincidentally, I grew up close to whither they exiled Cantor. > There are many many logicians and set theorists, only a few make the "whackiest intellectuals" list - I personally would class Russell as well balanced, Alonzo Church as quite sensible, Dana Scott as pretty solid, . . . etc. Well, the problem is that no one on your list has an Umlaut in their name. If you want to do really important fundamental work, that's almost a requirement. Jokes aside, Raymond Smullyan was also a splendid fellow who did important work. And, a magician (and concert pianist), too. Just to come back to the topic of the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Smullyan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Smullyan

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

h2odragon 3y ago

> without feeling the need to innovate. the sibling comment mentions "craft vs art"; and thats valid. However, some may be pursuing a different craft (or art) than the illusion. Stupid stale stage magic makes a great framework for an original comedy routine, perhaps. The elegant craft of the "4 shows a day, 7 days a week" lounge act that is reliably entertaining for years is not something to lightly dismiss either. It extends to programming; that people who are not facing the hard problems everyday may well still be doing valid work. The Nth re-implementation of "strings for C that suck less" or "super tight circle drawing hack for today's hot hardware" can well be Art, and can well be worthy beyond their creator's joy (tho that alone is justification enough to make them).