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> Wind and solar are terrific but unreliable. What if it’s not windy or sunny? Battery storage can fill the gap. This blog post makes a good argument why batte

> Wind and solar are terrific but unreliable. What if it’s not windy or sunny? Battery storage can fill the gap. This blog post makes a good argument why battery storage and over provisioning of renewables could solve this problem - https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2023/07/12/grid-storage-batteries-will-win/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2023/07/12/grid-storage-b.... In addition it doesn't include dynamically controlling demand (for example not charging EVs when demand is high). > So we need something to replace coal, which provides the grid’s base load. That thing can basically only be nuclear at this point. Sweden doesn't appear to use coal as baseload. The UK did, but managed to replace most of it with gas, wind, solar, reduced demand and increased imports (https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/historicaldata/ https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/historicaldata/).

jen729w 3y ago
> and increased imports From France, who has a shit-load of nuclear. :-)
- kieranmaine 3y ago
  I'm for more nuclear (a decent amount is generated in the UK), but I think your statement: "So we need something to replace coal, which provides the grid’s base load. That thing can basically only be nuclear at this point." doesn't take into the impact storage (both stationary and in the form of EVs) will have in the future.
  - Turing_Machine 3y ago
    > the impact storage (both stationary and in the form of EVs) will have in the future. Have you ever heard the expression "hope is not a plan"?
    - kieranmaine 3y ago
      I'm basing this on the huge increase in battery production. From https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-grid-scale-battery-storage-additions-2017-2022 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-grid-s...: * Annual grid-scale battery storage additions went from 0.76 GW in 2016 to 11.21 GW in 2022. I couldn't find the GWh figures, but this is a fast ramp up. * "In September 2022, India released its draft National Electricity Plan, setting out ambitious targets for the development of battery energy storage, with an estimated capacity of between 51 to 84 GW installed by 2031-32." * "In December 2022, the Australian Renewable Energy Agency...announced funding support for a total of 2 GW/4.2 GWh of grid-scale storage capacity, equipped with grid-forming inverters to provide essential system services that are currently supplied by thermal power plants." From https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/executive-summary https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/executive...: * "Automotive lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery demand increased by about 65% to 550 GWh in 2022, from about 330 GWh in 2021" * "August 2022 and March 2023, major EV and battery makers announced cumulative post-IRA investments of at least USD 52 billion in North American EV supply chains – of which 50% is for battery manufacturing, and about 20% each for battery components and EV manufacturing." These pages also list the challenges faced, so I'm not assuming it's a smooth road ahead. However, the trend is clear. Hopefully, technological improvements will continue and drive down costs further (I have no knowledge if this will happen). I hope there's improvements in nuclear technology that allow for a faster, cheaper nuclear rollout and belief it has it's place. But to return to original comment I replied that states "we need something to replace coal...that thing can...only be nuclear at this point" dismisses the increases in investment and production of battery storage.
- _ph_ 3y ago
  No, they don't. The French grid wouldn't have made it through 2022 without a lot of imports from Germany, as too many reactors were down for maintenande. They found a fault which concerned most reactors of that type. On top of that, in the summer the cooling of the reactors is a growing worry with raising temperatures. Of course, you could decide to sterelize the rivers used for cooling. Alternatively, you have to throttle the nuclear output.
doikor 3y ago
The kind of storage we would need in the Nordics is around 1 week of total consumption. That is roughly how long the longest really cold windless periods last in the winter (basically a large high pressure zone parking itself over the area and they can be big enough to cover pretty much all of Sweden) and sun is kinda bad during the winter this far north.
- audunw 3y ago
  In the north thermal energy storage is a viable solution, and those can store energy for months. You can dump heat into them in summer and still pull from it in winter. Since heating is by far the biggest consumer of energy in winter, just taking care of that with stored thermal energy will deal with a big fraction of the energy storage needs. We need more districting heating systems.
  - cjg_ 3y ago
    There's several projects ongoing to store heat from district heating systems, for example in Västerås [1] and Linköping [2] [1] https://www.malarenergi.se/om-malarenergi/framtidens-samhalle/vara-anlaggningar/energilager/ https://www.malarenergi.se/om-malarenergi/framtidens-samhall... [2] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/de-lagrar-varme-i-berggrunden-ska-anvandas-i-vinter https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/de-lagrar-varme-i-berg...
  - doikor 3y ago
    We are talking about 2 to 3 million MWh for Sweden alone (~120 million MWh yearly consumption so in reality probably a bit more then that as the consumption is higher in the winter). The largest battery based energy storage in the world is 3000 MWh so we just need to build thousand of those (or a 1000x larger one). Good luck with that. The largest heat storage under construction is 90000 MWh so that is a step in the right direction but still falls short by around 35x and even more if we have to turn that heat into electricity (While a lot of this consumption is district heating it is not all of it. And a large chunk of new district heating is just massive heat pumps) And now that you have built these tools to make wind/solar work you have to factor the price of these into the price of wind/solar and suddenly they do not look that cheap when compared to nuclear. This is why the government and Vattenfall in Sweden want to build more nuclear. Realistically the only cost effective energy storage on this scale we have available is hydro and pretty much all the places where it is cheap in Sweden have already been built. In general I think Sweden is on the right track. They have a lot of wind and are building a lot more of it. They can also build more nuclear at the same time. Though Sweden (just like here in Finland) are slowly reaching the point that when it is windy the wind farms don't really make much money as the price on the spot markets is very close to 0 so we also need a lot of new intermittent energy consumption (industrial processes that can be slowed down/ramped up cost effectively, make hydrogen, fill the heat storages with heat pumps, etc). This is the place where batteries can play a big role by being able to "move" this electricity into the future to a moment where there is more consumption/less production.
rekoil 3y ago
Our (Swedens) base load is mostly nuclear and hydro currently, the capacity generated from each type can be viewed live at https://www.svk.se/kontrollrummet https://www.svk.se/kontrollrummet But we have multiple large industries starting up in the coming decades which will require substantial power, while at the same time electric vehicles are slowly but surely becoming mainstream, further straining our grid. Increasing nuclear is a great (and necessary) decision, it's just a shame the decision wasn't taken 20 years ago.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Electric vehicles is both a bane and a boon. Let them charge when it's cheap, program them to sell back a fraction of the charge when it's expensive. Some of the planned industry investment is hydrogen generation, which is perfect for varying power. The gas caverns can be filled when rates are low.
  - rekoil 3y ago
    Yep, this (EVs with bidirectional charging) is something we have to do, as it could be used to balance the grid when necessary, diminishing the need to spin up fossil fuel power in these circumstances. Unfortunately most EVs don't have the hardware to be used as batteries through their Type 2 (Mennekes) connector, as it requires a built-in inverter that just isn't there. There are some new products (e.g. [1]) coming out that uses the CCS2 port on the car, providing the necessary inverter externally, which would enable older EVs to be used as batteries for grid balancing or other similar uses. 1: https://wallbox.com/sv_se/quasar-2-laddare-dubbelriktade-elfordon https://wallbox.com/sv_se/quasar-2-laddare-dubbelriktade-elf...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

jen729w 3y ago

> and increased imports From France, who has a shit-load of nuclear. :-)

kieranmaine 3y ago
I'm for more nuclear (a decent amount is generated in the UK), but I think your statement: "So we need something to replace coal, which provides the grid’s base load. That thing can basically only be nuclear at this point." doesn't take into the impact storage (both stationary and in the form of EVs) will have in the future.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  > the impact storage (both stationary and in the form of EVs) will have in the future. Have you ever heard the expression "hope is not a plan"?
  - kieranmaine 3y ago
    I'm basing this on the huge increase in battery production. From https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-grid-scale-battery-storage-additions-2017-2022 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/annual-grid-s...: * Annual grid-scale battery storage additions went from 0.76 GW in 2016 to 11.21 GW in 2022. I couldn't find the GWh figures, but this is a fast ramp up. * "In September 2022, India released its draft National Electricity Plan, setting out ambitious targets for the development of battery energy storage, with an estimated capacity of between 51 to 84 GW installed by 2031-32." * "In December 2022, the Australian Renewable Energy Agency...announced funding support for a total of 2 GW/4.2 GWh of grid-scale storage capacity, equipped with grid-forming inverters to provide essential system services that are currently supplied by thermal power plants." From https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/executive-summary https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/executive...: * "Automotive lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery demand increased by about 65% to 550 GWh in 2022, from about 330 GWh in 2021" * "August 2022 and March 2023, major EV and battery makers announced cumulative post-IRA investments of at least USD 52 billion in North American EV supply chains – of which 50% is for battery manufacturing, and about 20% each for battery components and EV manufacturing." These pages also list the challenges faced, so I'm not assuming it's a smooth road ahead. However, the trend is clear. Hopefully, technological improvements will continue and drive down costs further (I have no knowledge if this will happen). I hope there's improvements in nuclear technology that allow for a faster, cheaper nuclear rollout and belief it has it's place. But to return to original comment I replied that states "we need something to replace coal...that thing can...only be nuclear at this point" dismisses the increases in investment and production of battery storage.
_ph_ 3y ago
No, they don't. The French grid wouldn't have made it through 2022 without a lot of imports from Germany, as too many reactors were down for maintenande. They found a fault which concerned most reactors of that type. On top of that, in the summer the cooling of the reactors is a growing worry with raising temperatures. Of course, you could decide to sterelize the rivers used for cooling. Alternatively, you have to throttle the nuclear output.

doikor 3y ago

The kind of storage we would need in the Nordics is around 1 week of total consumption. That is roughly how long the longest really cold windless periods last in the winter (basically a large high pressure zone parking itself over the area and they can be big enough to cover pretty much all of Sweden) and sun is kinda bad during the winter this far north.

audunw 3y ago
In the north thermal energy storage is a viable solution, and those can store energy for months. You can dump heat into them in summer and still pull from it in winter. Since heating is by far the biggest consumer of energy in winter, just taking care of that with stored thermal energy will deal with a big fraction of the energy storage needs. We need more districting heating systems.
- cjg_ 3y ago
  There's several projects ongoing to store heat from district heating systems, for example in Västerås [1] and Linköping [2] [1] https://www.malarenergi.se/om-malarenergi/framtidens-samhalle/vara-anlaggningar/energilager/ https://www.malarenergi.se/om-malarenergi/framtidens-samhall... [2] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/de-lagrar-varme-i-berggrunden-ska-anvandas-i-vinter https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/de-lagrar-varme-i-berg...
- doikor 3y ago
  We are talking about 2 to 3 million MWh for Sweden alone (~120 million MWh yearly consumption so in reality probably a bit more then that as the consumption is higher in the winter). The largest battery based energy storage in the world is 3000 MWh so we just need to build thousand of those (or a 1000x larger one). Good luck with that. The largest heat storage under construction is 90000 MWh so that is a step in the right direction but still falls short by around 35x and even more if we have to turn that heat into electricity (While a lot of this consumption is district heating it is not all of it. And a large chunk of new district heating is just massive heat pumps) And now that you have built these tools to make wind/solar work you have to factor the price of these into the price of wind/solar and suddenly they do not look that cheap when compared to nuclear. This is why the government and Vattenfall in Sweden want to build more nuclear. Realistically the only cost effective energy storage on this scale we have available is hydro and pretty much all the places where it is cheap in Sweden have already been built. In general I think Sweden is on the right track. They have a lot of wind and are building a lot more of it. They can also build more nuclear at the same time. Though Sweden (just like here in Finland) are slowly reaching the point that when it is windy the wind farms don't really make much money as the price on the spot markets is very close to 0 so we also need a lot of new intermittent energy consumption (industrial processes that can be slowed down/ramped up cost effectively, make hydrogen, fill the heat storages with heat pumps, etc). This is the place where batteries can play a big role by being able to "move" this electricity into the future to a moment where there is more consumption/less production.

rekoil 3y ago

Our (Swedens) base load is mostly nuclear and hydro currently, the capacity generated from each type can be viewed live at https://www.svk.se/kontrollrummet https://www.svk.se/kontrollrummet But we have multiple large industries starting up in the coming decades which will require substantial power, while at the same time electric vehicles are slowly but surely becoming mainstream, further straining our grid. Increasing nuclear is a great (and necessary) decision, it's just a shame the decision wasn't taken 20 years ago.

actionfromafar 3y ago
Electric vehicles is both a bane and a boon. Let them charge when it's cheap, program them to sell back a fraction of the charge when it's expensive. Some of the planned industry investment is hydrogen generation, which is perfect for varying power. The gas caverns can be filled when rates are low.
- rekoil 3y ago
  Yep, this (EVs with bidirectional charging) is something we have to do, as it could be used to balance the grid when necessary, diminishing the need to spin up fossil fuel power in these circumstances. Unfortunately most EVs don't have the hardware to be used as batteries through their Type 2 (Mennekes) connector, as it requires a built-in inverter that just isn't there. There are some new products (e.g. [1]) coming out that uses the CCS2 port on the car, providing the necessary inverter externally, which would enable older EVs to be used as batteries for grid balancing or other similar uses. 1: https://wallbox.com/sv_se/quasar-2-laddare-dubbelriktade-elfordon https://wallbox.com/sv_se/quasar-2-laddare-dubbelriktade-elf...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]