6 ms·

> When you say someone is "talented" at a sport or intellectual pursuit, are you talking about the same physical (or mental) advantages? "Talent" is the geneti

> When you say someone is "talented" at a sport or intellectual pursuit, are you talking about the same physical (or mental) advantages? "Talent" is the genetic component of the advantage. What's so hard to understand?

em-bee 3y ago
what's hard to understand is why there is no evidence that such a genetic component exists. so far all claims are unproven speculation
- antisthenes 3y ago
  If you honestly believe there's no genetic difference in cognitive ability (or physical ability), then you might be deliberately being obtuse or not arguing in good faith.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    i believe in evidence. it may well be that there are genetic differences. but until we have proof and the ability to measure the difference, i also think that believing in talent being genetic is dangerous as it holds back people who are perceived to be untalented. if i believe that the talent of my kids is genetic then i will be less likely to try to foster them to do better. this is especially dangerous for teachers. our society suffers a lot from believing that people are poor because they have no talent to do better. and worse some apply this based on race. we can talk about talent being genetic when we no longer have poor people and have abolished all racism, but until we have done everything we can to allow everyone to develop their talent, we risk misusing this belief as an excuse not to support people to do better because we lack the believe that they even could do better.
    - strken 3y ago
      Do you believe in the evidence of partial heritability of cognitive function that we see in twin studies like TEDS? https://www.teds.ac.uk/about-teds https://www.teds.ac.uk/about-teds I think it can be simultaneously true that we suffer from believing ability is partly inherited, and also that we live in a world where that's actually the case. Though I also think it's cruel to tell a man with an IQ of 87 who's working as a chicken processor that the only reason he's not a Harvard professor is a bad education, bad parents, and his own failings.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        of course both can be true. i already mentioned that but you are drawing the wrong conclusion. how would telling them that the reason they are not a harvard professor is because they don't have the talent for it be any better? what's cruel is that we tell them that they have no hope because their circumstances are beyond their control instead of supporting them with the resources they would need to develop the potential that they do have. all that statement is doing is looking down on them, quite regardless of what factors determine their potential. the problem is that people look for evidence of talent when we still don't know how to measure it. we simply have no idea whether the work in this competition is the result of talent or other factors. but we decide that these kid have talent and that other kids don't, when it's possible that others could create a similar work if they just had been given the opportunity. the discussion about talent gets in the way of helping people to develop. see also the discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38287294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38287294 btw: i am skeptical about twin studies being enough to give us the answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism
        tptacek 3y ago
        The extent to which heritability "proves too much" seems like a particularly fertile source of objections.
        strken 3y ago
        I agree with the criticisms but don't agree that they invalidate twin studies to the extent that it's reasonable to believe cognitive traits are 100% nurture. Yes, some older studies used odd statistical modelling. Yes, the specific number they put on heritability might be biased by a few factors. Yes, people lie on self-report surveys. Yes, adoption studies are biased by who agrees to sign up. Yes, in utero conditions falsely appear as heritability in twin studies. These are all valid criticisms in that they affect the precision of the measurement, but they're not enough to fully write off heritability as a whole. We've identified SNPs that correlate with IQ and education attainment, too, so there's an obvious mechanism. I think it's better to tell people the truth: achievement is a murky blend of nature and nurture interacting together, the factors seem to be important in different proportions for different people, and we only understand it imprecisely and at a population level. Further complicating the matter, ability at birth can be broken down into heritability and environmental factors before birth. Our chicken processor probably tried his hardest and can feel good. His daughter can do better if she's lucky and works hard. There's no need to take an extreme view where "talent" (meaning something like potential at birth) must be 0% or 100% of achievement, or to tell that to people, because from what we know it's somewhere in the middle.

em-bee 3y ago

what's hard to understand is why there is no evidence that such a genetic component exists. so far all claims are unproven speculation

antisthenes 3y ago
If you honestly believe there's no genetic difference in cognitive ability (or physical ability), then you might be deliberately being obtuse or not arguing in good faith.
- em-bee 3y ago
  i believe in evidence. it may well be that there are genetic differences. but until we have proof and the ability to measure the difference, i also think that believing in talent being genetic is dangerous as it holds back people who are perceived to be untalented. if i believe that the talent of my kids is genetic then i will be less likely to try to foster them to do better. this is especially dangerous for teachers. our society suffers a lot from believing that people are poor because they have no talent to do better. and worse some apply this based on race. we can talk about talent being genetic when we no longer have poor people and have abolished all racism, but until we have done everything we can to allow everyone to develop their talent, we risk misusing this belief as an excuse not to support people to do better because we lack the believe that they even could do better.
  - strken 3y ago
    Do you believe in the evidence of partial heritability of cognitive function that we see in twin studies like TEDS? https://www.teds.ac.uk/about-teds https://www.teds.ac.uk/about-teds I think it can be simultaneously true that we suffer from believing ability is partly inherited, and also that we live in a world where that's actually the case. Though I also think it's cruel to tell a man with an IQ of 87 who's working as a chicken processor that the only reason he's not a Harvard professor is a bad education, bad parents, and his own failings.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      of course both can be true. i already mentioned that but you are drawing the wrong conclusion. how would telling them that the reason they are not a harvard professor is because they don't have the talent for it be any better? what's cruel is that we tell them that they have no hope because their circumstances are beyond their control instead of supporting them with the resources they would need to develop the potential that they do have. all that statement is doing is looking down on them, quite regardless of what factors determine their potential. the problem is that people look for evidence of talent when we still don't know how to measure it. we simply have no idea whether the work in this competition is the result of talent or other factors. but we decide that these kid have talent and that other kids don't, when it's possible that others could create a similar work if they just had been given the opportunity. the discussion about talent gets in the way of helping people to develop. see also the discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38287294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38287294 btw: i am skeptical about twin studies being enough to give us the answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism
      - tptacek 3y ago
        The extent to which heritability "proves too much" seems like a particularly fertile source of objections.
      - strken 3y ago
        I agree with the criticisms but don't agree that they invalidate twin studies to the extent that it's reasonable to believe cognitive traits are 100% nurture. Yes, some older studies used odd statistical modelling. Yes, the specific number they put on heritability might be biased by a few factors. Yes, people lie on self-report surveys. Yes, adoption studies are biased by who agrees to sign up. Yes, in utero conditions falsely appear as heritability in twin studies. These are all valid criticisms in that they affect the precision of the measurement, but they're not enough to fully write off heritability as a whole. We've identified SNPs that correlate with IQ and education attainment, too, so there's an obvious mechanism. I think it's better to tell people the truth: achievement is a murky blend of nature and nurture interacting together, the factors seem to be important in different proportions for different people, and we only understand it imprecisely and at a population level. Further complicating the matter, ability at birth can be broken down into heritability and environmental factors before birth. Our chicken processor probably tried his hardest and can feel good. His daughter can do better if she's lucky and works hard. There's no need to take an extreme view where "talent" (meaning something like potential at birth) must be 0% or 100% of achievement, or to tell that to people, because from what we know it's somewhere in the middle.