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The issue isn't "online buying." The current dealership model creates and tolerates incentives for dealers to rip me off at sale time. It also injects a set of

The issue isn't "online buying." The current dealership model creates and tolerates incentives for dealers to rip me off at sale time. It also injects a set of complexity into the model, where if I choose to buy a car of brand X, I then have to comparison shop for the exact same car at multiple dealerships. I've bought two Teslas, and the nice thing about the process is that it doesn't matter where I pick up the car, I get the same price, and the exact same experience. Tesla also won't try to rip me off on buy-ups like tire protection and seat protection. (Then again, Tesla really needs price protection because they significantly dropped the price of the Model Y shortly after I bought it.) One of the most annoying situations was a Subaru dealer that made me sit through a pitch for various upsells (that were rip offs) and then sign a form that I listened to them. I really hope the Amazon car purchases explicitly prohibit upsells and other nonsense. Just bring me the car, give me the keys, and stay long enough to make sure that the car works. No BS upsells.

Spartan-S63 3y ago
So much this. I'd much rather pay a shipping fee from the factory to my address than a dealer handling fee. I honestly wish I could just order a Tacoma straight from Toyota, pay for it to be shipped to me, and avoid the dealership rigamarole altogether. I'm okay waiting my turn in line from the factory. I don't want to deal with artificial dealership "market adjustments." I don't understand why we haven't deregulated the car sales industry to allow (and even require?) manufacturers to directly sell to consumers, circumventing dealerships entirely. It would upend that industry and force them to prove they actually are a value-add service.
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  There was a program where you could fly to Germany and buy a BMW there, drive it for a few days and ship it home. Ended up being cheaper than buying it at a local dealership. Not sure if it is still available. Dealerships are local jobs programs in some sense and they got State laws enacted to secure their positions. Tesla went up against them and won I guess. My guess is the Amazon program will be similar to the Costco program.
  - frantathefranta 3y ago
    It's definitely still available for Porsche[0] [0]https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/deliveryprograms/europeandelivery/ https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/deliveryprog...
  - jccooper 3y ago
    European Delivery Program. https://www.internationalbmw.com/european-delivery-program2.htm https://www.internationalbmw.com/european-delivery-program2....
    - sidewndr46 3y ago
      hmm, any idea if they do this with motorcycles?
  - lastofthemojito 3y ago
    Volvo does it too (for Europe-made models, not China-made models): https://www.volvocars.com/us/l/osd-tourist/ https://www.volvocars.com/us/l/osd-tourist/
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    They haven't won in every state, I don't think. Not only do dealerships provide local jobs but generally their owners tend to be well to do and donate prolifically to local elections, where dollars are normally otherwise scarce because of their lower participation rates.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      > Not only do dealerships provide local jobs Which is a terrible reason to keep predatory businesses around. > but generally their owners tend to be well to do You can always make a lot of money when you're ripping off the public > and donate prolifically to local elections "Bribes local politicians". Car dealerships seem like some kind of mob racket. They are a third party that managed to insert themselves in the middle of transactions that shouldn't involve them, they extract a ton of money from the public while providing no value, and then bribe lawmakers to make sure they can keep the rigged game going. The sooner we can get rid of them the better.
- belltaco 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - nickff 3y ago
    The piece linked to in your second article is more on point than either of your direct citations: https://www.mercatus.org/research/policy-briefs/state-franchise-law-carjacks-auto-buyers https://www.mercatus.org/research/policy-briefs/state-franch...
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Many motor vehicles are large dangerous multi-ton vehicles using a dangerously volatile fuel source. There's a reason we require extensive licensing. We need to ensure that only appropriately trained users are sold these dangerous devices. At about 43000 fatalities per year, they are one of the top causes of deaths in the US. You can't just let everyone operate machinery like that. This is setting aside the scope for direct to consumer sales exploiting uninformed customers. Remember: safety regulations are written in blood.
  - seattle_spring 3y ago
    Your statement seems like a total non sequitur. How does making sure purchasers are adequately licenced have anything to do with deregulating the dealership model?
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      Regulations are written in blood. Remember Chesterton's fence. If you cannot articulate the reason for why dealerships exist, you are not equipped to argue for their deregulation. The current model increases safety. People have bought dangerous devices on Amazon before. And people have used these dangerous devices irresponsibly. We shouldn't encourage their proliferation.
      - SteveNuts 3y ago
        So if Amazon implements a driver's license verification step, would it be equally "safe" as a dealership purchase?
        renewiltord 3y ago
        The subtle evaluations of a dealership salesman cannot be emulated by an automated system. Humans are superior to machines for evaluating other humans. Beware unintended consequences of deregulating. Society needs more regulation (written in blood), not less, especially in these trying times where corporations, with their outsize power, are trying to get direct access to consumers to exploit them. Systems like dealerships are load-bearing in society, designed to reduce the pressure of direct impact of large corporations against individuals.
HPsquared 3y ago
It has pluses and minuses. Sales and service become a monopoly. It's like the Apple model. It can work well, but it's really bad is the company doesn't provide good service.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  > it's really bad is the company doesn't provide good service Then you just buy from another company and market works.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    Well with cars it might be a decade before you get to exercise your market power. Also, since so much of the experience can be hyperlocal it can be hard to do the research that could steer you elsewhere.
ghaff 3y ago
>The issue isn't "online buying." The issue (for many) is things like negotiating, financing, trade-ins, and car availability. Aside from the availability thing (especially the past couple of years), you can largely make the rest go away by no-haggle cash on the barrel and deal with your own trade-in. But most buyers don't actually want that. When I bought a car the summer before last, it took a while to get the car delivered (and the dealer wasn't exactly candid that "in transit" actually meant "not actually built yet"). But I was paying cash and they actually offered a ridiculously good trade-in and a few upsells were mostly about saying no a bunch of times and ultimately getting the price of "factory options" added to my trade-in. It took a couple hours and a few phone calls while waiting for the car to be delivered, but honestly not a big deal for an expensive, rare purchase.
- downut 3y ago
  The last three vehicles I've bought, from three different Toyota dealerships, the options, color, etc. were negotiated completely over email, no phone calls or physical dealership visit. I always pay cash and I never trade in. At the end of the process, which wasn't excruciating, I asked for and received, in each case, a price fixed to the penny. In each case I quite brutally asserted, multiple times for each purchase, that if the price was even 1 penny more than the agreed on price stated in email, I was going to walk, even though I had to drive at least 100 miles in two cases. When I sat down at the dealer, I reasserted my guarantee that if the price was even 1 penny more, I was going to walk. We still had to sit through videos and the standard sales pitches for the undercoat, etc. Can I shout now? Lasting an hour. For the last Prius they said well this particular vehicle has an optional security registration or some such that is installed in the car. I said remove it. Maybe two minutes of harrumphing about how I am exposing myself and I got quite acidic actually. Well whatever they actually did the price I wrote a check for was exactly what we had agreed to over email. Now I don't actually care if what you like to do in your non-work time is to sit through car dealership sales pitches for nonsensical stuff, but I don't. And I want the option not to have to burn my time for this. It really is a wonder how normalized for many people it is to feel how pleasant it can be to sit through add on advertising while doing some sort of necessary activity where at the conclusion I'm going to write a check for tens of thousands of dollars. They're so helpful! Rather than what it is, which is time theft, condescendingly done.
josefresco 3y ago
Being pitched fabric protection or GAP insurance is no big deal. Just opt out and move along. I actually opted into fabric coverage on a lease because my kids were little and BOY was I happy I opted in after they destroyed the back seat with a ruptured bottle of hand lotion. The process might be onerous but it's far from a "rip off" or some sort of scam. Every car I've bought dating back 20 years had very helpful sales and finance people willing to explain everything. In one case they even disclosed their profit margin in the case of the GAP insurance (6%).
- TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
  It shouldn't take 4 hours to drive off the lot with the car after agreeing on a price paid in cash. My experience.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    In my experience, it's PDI that takes forever, because the techs are backed up. Typically I finance, and I don't spend any longer than 30 minutes signing forms and declining protection plan BS.
  - josefresco 3y ago
    Agreed. Pay cash! I bought an ATV and financed it and that was a mistake. I signed more documents than when I bought my house and I was only financing $6K! Took 1.5 hours despite arranging everything online before I arrived (or so I thought). The next year I bought one with cash, it took maybe 15 minutes.
SkyPuncher 3y ago
We walked out of a dealership about 10 minutes before we planned to sign on a car because the sales manager started trying to pull all of this slimy crap on us. We had a trade in that we were clear had problems, listing the exact problems. He assured us he wanted the car, but the moment it came to value it - suddenly it had all sorts of different problems. I do a lot of work on my cars, so I knew it was all scare tactics and BS. By contrast, my Tesla experience was the exact opposite. Schedule a test drive, walk into the store, get the car for 30 minutes, then run the numbers. When I told them I wasn't prepared to buy, I felt absolutely no pressure. In fact, the only pressure I felt the entire time was a statement that the federal tax credit is likely going to end and deliveries are mid-December. Even then, it was clear they were telling me for _my benefit_ (to not miss savings) rather than trying to get me to sign immediately. I absolutely want that buying experience.
Bluecobra 3y ago
> I really hope the Amazon car purchases explicitly prohibit upsells and other nonsense. Just bring me the car, give me the keys, and stay long enough to make sure that the car works. No BS upsells. I tried going to four separate Hyundai dealers in my area about a year ago as my lease was ending. Every Elantra was marked up at least $5K and the dealers tacked on some other interior protection plan and other crap. I visited one of the dealers again recently and they are still doing the markups. Sorry, but I am not going to pay $33K for a car that should be $23K. It’s really sad I can not buy a car at MSRP…
verdverm 3y ago
> No BS upsells. Those will become "in-app" purchases before long. Tesla already has this with self-driving. Many car companies are charging to enable features with a software switch now, which are more what I mean by "in-app", i.e. they will move them from sale time to prompt you for seat warmers on a really cold day, then charge you monthly to keep it. It's the idea that I need to pay a subscription for a car feature that irks me
- Kirby64 3y ago
  The BS is the stuff like windshield crack protection, undercoating, extended warranty, and tire protection. You can’t really upsell those when you leave the dealership. Sure, you can do other kinds of upsells, but those tend to be less scummy and when you don’t have a salesman breathing down your neck pressuring you it’s going to be less effective.

Spartan-S63 3y ago

So much this. I'd much rather pay a shipping fee from the factory to my address than a dealer handling fee. I honestly wish I could just order a Tacoma straight from Toyota, pay for it to be shipped to me, and avoid the dealership rigamarole altogether. I'm okay waiting my turn in line from the factory. I don't want to deal with artificial dealership "market adjustments." I don't understand why we haven't deregulated the car sales industry to allow (and even require?) manufacturers to directly sell to consumers, circumventing dealerships entirely. It would upend that industry and force them to prove they actually are a value-add service.

theGnuMe 3y ago
There was a program where you could fly to Germany and buy a BMW there, drive it for a few days and ship it home. Ended up being cheaper than buying it at a local dealership. Not sure if it is still available. Dealerships are local jobs programs in some sense and they got State laws enacted to secure their positions. Tesla went up against them and won I guess. My guess is the Amazon program will be similar to the Costco program.
- frantathefranta 3y ago
  It's definitely still available for Porsche[0] [0]https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/deliveryprograms/europeandelivery/ https://www.porsche.com/usa/motorsportandevents/deliveryprog...
- jccooper 3y ago
  European Delivery Program. https://www.internationalbmw.com/european-delivery-program2.htm https://www.internationalbmw.com/european-delivery-program2....
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    hmm, any idea if they do this with motorcycles?
- lastofthemojito 3y ago
  Volvo does it too (for Europe-made models, not China-made models): https://www.volvocars.com/us/l/osd-tourist/ https://www.volvocars.com/us/l/osd-tourist/
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  They haven't won in every state, I don't think. Not only do dealerships provide local jobs but generally their owners tend to be well to do and donate prolifically to local elections, where dollars are normally otherwise scarce because of their lower participation rates.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > Not only do dealerships provide local jobs Which is a terrible reason to keep predatory businesses around. > but generally their owners tend to be well to do You can always make a lot of money when you're ripping off the public > and donate prolifically to local elections "Bribes local politicians". Car dealerships seem like some kind of mob racket. They are a third party that managed to insert themselves in the middle of transactions that shouldn't involve them, they extract a ton of money from the public while providing no value, and then bribe lawmakers to make sure they can keep the rigged game going. The sooner we can get rid of them the better.
belltaco 3y ago
[flagged]
- nickff 3y ago
  The piece linked to in your second article is more on point than either of your direct citations: https://www.mercatus.org/research/policy-briefs/state-franchise-law-carjacks-auto-buyers https://www.mercatus.org/research/policy-briefs/state-franch...
renewiltord 3y ago
Many motor vehicles are large dangerous multi-ton vehicles using a dangerously volatile fuel source. There's a reason we require extensive licensing. We need to ensure that only appropriately trained users are sold these dangerous devices. At about 43000 fatalities per year, they are one of the top causes of deaths in the US. You can't just let everyone operate machinery like that. This is setting aside the scope for direct to consumer sales exploiting uninformed customers. Remember: safety regulations are written in blood.
- seattle_spring 3y ago
  Your statement seems like a total non sequitur. How does making sure purchasers are adequately licenced have anything to do with deregulating the dealership model?
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Regulations are written in blood. Remember Chesterton's fence. If you cannot articulate the reason for why dealerships exist, you are not equipped to argue for their deregulation. The current model increases safety. People have bought dangerous devices on Amazon before. And people have used these dangerous devices irresponsibly. We shouldn't encourage their proliferation.
    - SteveNuts 3y ago
      So if Amazon implements a driver's license verification step, would it be equally "safe" as a dealership purchase?
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        The subtle evaluations of a dealership salesman cannot be emulated by an automated system. Humans are superior to machines for evaluating other humans. Beware unintended consequences of deregulating. Society needs more regulation (written in blood), not less, especially in these trying times where corporations, with their outsize power, are trying to get direct access to consumers to exploit them. Systems like dealerships are load-bearing in society, designed to reduce the pressure of direct impact of large corporations against individuals.

HPsquared 3y ago

It has pluses and minuses. Sales and service become a monopoly. It's like the Apple model. It can work well, but it's really bad is the company doesn't provide good service.

throwaway290 3y ago
> it's really bad is the company doesn't provide good service Then you just buy from another company and market works.
- brewdad 3y ago
  Well with cars it might be a decade before you get to exercise your market power. Also, since so much of the experience can be hyperlocal it can be hard to do the research that could steer you elsewhere.

ghaff 3y ago

>The issue isn't "online buying." The issue (for many) is things like negotiating, financing, trade-ins, and car availability. Aside from the availability thing (especially the past couple of years), you can largely make the rest go away by no-haggle cash on the barrel and deal with your own trade-in. But most buyers don't actually want that. When I bought a car the summer before last, it took a while to get the car delivered (and the dealer wasn't exactly candid that "in transit" actually meant "not actually built yet"). But I was paying cash and they actually offered a ridiculously good trade-in and a few upsells were mostly about saying no a bunch of times and ultimately getting the price of "factory options" added to my trade-in. It took a couple hours and a few phone calls while waiting for the car to be delivered, but honestly not a big deal for an expensive, rare purchase.

downut 3y ago
The last three vehicles I've bought, from three different Toyota dealerships, the options, color, etc. were negotiated completely over email, no phone calls or physical dealership visit. I always pay cash and I never trade in. At the end of the process, which wasn't excruciating, I asked for and received, in each case, a price fixed to the penny. In each case I quite brutally asserted, multiple times for each purchase, that if the price was even 1 penny more than the agreed on price stated in email, I was going to walk, even though I had to drive at least 100 miles in two cases. When I sat down at the dealer, I reasserted my guarantee that if the price was even 1 penny more, I was going to walk. We still had to sit through videos and the standard sales pitches for the undercoat, etc. Can I shout now? Lasting an hour. For the last Prius they said well this particular vehicle has an optional security registration or some such that is installed in the car. I said remove it. Maybe two minutes of harrumphing about how I am exposing myself and I got quite acidic actually. Well whatever they actually did the price I wrote a check for was exactly what we had agreed to over email. Now I don't actually care if what you like to do in your non-work time is to sit through car dealership sales pitches for nonsensical stuff, but I don't. And I want the option not to have to burn my time for this. It really is a wonder how normalized for many people it is to feel how pleasant it can be to sit through add on advertising while doing some sort of necessary activity where at the conclusion I'm going to write a check for tens of thousands of dollars. They're so helpful! Rather than what it is, which is time theft, condescendingly done.

josefresco 3y ago

Being pitched fabric protection or GAP insurance is no big deal. Just opt out and move along. I actually opted into fabric coverage on a lease because my kids were little and BOY was I happy I opted in after they destroyed the back seat with a ruptured bottle of hand lotion. The process might be onerous but it's far from a "rip off" or some sort of scam. Every car I've bought dating back 20 years had very helpful sales and finance people willing to explain everything. In one case they even disclosed their profit margin in the case of the GAP insurance (6%).

TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
It shouldn't take 4 hours to drive off the lot with the car after agreeing on a price paid in cash. My experience.
- kube-system 3y ago
  In my experience, it's PDI that takes forever, because the techs are backed up. Typically I finance, and I don't spend any longer than 30 minutes signing forms and declining protection plan BS.
- josefresco 3y ago
  Agreed. Pay cash! I bought an ATV and financed it and that was a mistake. I signed more documents than when I bought my house and I was only financing $6K! Took 1.5 hours despite arranging everything online before I arrived (or so I thought). The next year I bought one with cash, it took maybe 15 minutes.

SkyPuncher 3y ago

We walked out of a dealership about 10 minutes before we planned to sign on a car because the sales manager started trying to pull all of this slimy crap on us. We had a trade in that we were clear had problems, listing the exact problems. He assured us he wanted the car, but the moment it came to value it - suddenly it had all sorts of different problems. I do a lot of work on my cars, so I knew it was all scare tactics and BS. By contrast, my Tesla experience was the exact opposite. Schedule a test drive, walk into the store, get the car for 30 minutes, then run the numbers. When I told them I wasn't prepared to buy, I felt absolutely no pressure. In fact, the only pressure I felt the entire time was a statement that the federal tax credit is likely going to end and deliveries are mid-December. Even then, it was clear they were telling me for _my benefit_ (to not miss savings) rather than trying to get me to sign immediately. I absolutely want that buying experience.

Bluecobra 3y ago

> I really hope the Amazon car purchases explicitly prohibit upsells and other nonsense. Just bring me the car, give me the keys, and stay long enough to make sure that the car works. No BS upsells. I tried going to four separate Hyundai dealers in my area about a year ago as my lease was ending. Every Elantra was marked up at least $5K and the dealers tacked on some other interior protection plan and other crap. I visited one of the dealers again recently and they are still doing the markups. Sorry, but I am not going to pay $33K for a car that should be $23K. It’s really sad I can not buy a car at MSRP…

verdverm 3y ago

> No BS upsells. Those will become "in-app" purchases before long. Tesla already has this with self-driving. Many car companies are charging to enable features with a software switch now, which are more what I mean by "in-app", i.e. they will move them from sale time to prompt you for seat warmers on a really cold day, then charge you monthly to keep it. It's the idea that I need to pay a subscription for a car feature that irks me

Kirby64 3y ago
The BS is the stuff like windshield crack protection, undercoating, extended warranty, and tire protection. You can’t really upsell those when you leave the dealership. Sure, you can do other kinds of upsells, but those tend to be less scummy and when you don’t have a salesman breathing down your neck pressuring you it’s going to be less effective.