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Agreed. I don't mind them having their messaging platform. I don't mind it being technically superior to RCS. I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing

Agreed. I don't mind them having their messaging platform. I don't mind it being technically superior to RCS. I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing a shit job of integrating with a telecommunications standard and then slapping a green bubble on it to get their oblivious users to ostracize people's kids.

eropple 3y ago
Apple doesn't put a green bubble on SMS "to ostracize people's kids". Kids are ostracized just for having a default skin in Fortnite--because kids can be little shitheads. Apple differentiates because what you can do with SMS is different from what you can do with iMessage and that's a clear way to demonstrate it (and also to indicate if there's something weird going on when it changes from iMessage to SMS). RCS is a suboptimal standard, and while it's good that Apple will support it to try to de-jank mixed-platform group messaging, I'd expect it also to be a different color because RCS in turn introduces its own jank that iMessage doesn't have. So people who want to make up an Apple to get mad at will still have their chance, I guess.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  > what you can do is different Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level? Is it like "Signal" different or is it like "different" different? Edit: bonus points if you can offer why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone, as often it and WebKit seem to be behind most of the serious 0-days...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    I can edit an iMessage after sending it, I can use threads and it doesn’t require a cell carrier - just an Internet connection. It’s also e2e encrypted and I can optionally let people know I have do not disturb on. It integrates with sharing my location and I can tell when someone is actually typing
  - marcellus23 3y ago
    > Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level It's different in the same way every messaging app is different from SMS: * Group chats, with custom group names and icons * High quality images/videos * Reactions * Stickers * Rich link previews * Threads * etc. etc. > why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone I don't think a lot (any?) of the vulnerabilities are unique to iMessage. It's more about the fact that SMS/iMessage is a means for someone to send you data that's then parsed/decoded immediately by the system.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      Isnt that the reason sandboxes exist? I just feel like these thins happen way less often with Signal and [shudder] Whatsapp...
      - dmonitor 3y ago
        iMessage is a much juicier potential attack vector. over 50% of the US market (trends towards the richer half, too).
  - TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
    Some carriers charge per SMS - after X SMSs per month. iMessage is completely free. Kind of important to be able to tell if you are burning up your SMS quota.
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    Both iMessage and Webkit have to accept requests from unknown sources that can contain a wide variety of content type. some other content types, like EPS are themselves programming languages that could contain infiltration scripts. That is why Apple has dropped EPS support. Similar situation can happen for other kinds of image and video content. I don't know much about how iMessage communication is implemented but it does offer end to end encryption and supports richer interaction and content than plain SMS does. that was one of the reasons that Apple marked SMS clients with the green bubbles to indicate not to expect the same interaction with them. It was some little shits that turned that into an anti-status symbol.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      I just laugh because Signal is way better than all of this and—wouldn't ya know—the default is "blue bubbles". They are the ultimate blue bubble to me because its almost all yours and gives you way more control than anything else like iMessage and its all audited and open for examination (theoretically)
      - pertymcpert 3y ago
        Sorry in which way is Signal better?
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        Signal can be better in all ways except the one that matters most. Not a single person I communicate with uses it. So it's useless.
        Obscurity4340 3y ago
        You gotta find a way to make it clear you dont consent to be sharing your stuff with anyone but you , case closed. It has all the same toys and whistles so theres just no excuse. Its a boundary and we all need to get real better at understanding and being respectful thereto. Only issue is if you want them more than they you, there's a bit of a dance to navigate . If the like Musk, send them to all his endorsementz. At the end of the day, it will have to be a negotiation at play and its more of a toughlove ultimatun purely for the area of which messenging platforms to engage with.
  - andylynch 3y ago
    Different like … totally. SMS was part of the very early GSM design work in the mid ‘80s and is built into the network at a fundamental level (this is why the particular character limit etc etc)- it was designed in the GSM/SS7/ telco world and has been used for over thirty years. iMessage was designed and built by Apple as a single operator with virtually total control of the backend and user devices. They achieve similar results in completely different ways, the best analogy I can think of is how octopus’s and jellyfish can see too, but evolved eyes very different to our own.
- ronyeh 3y ago
  But they pick an ugly shade of green though. I currently have an iPhone 15 Pro Max and have also used Android devices in the past. I like to switch each time I get a new phone. Apple definitely picks an ugly color to make you feel uncomfortable texting with a non iPhone user. They should at least let users choose the color (which will never happen).
  - ladberg 3y ago
    All texts were green for years before iMessage (and blue texts) existed, so I highly doubt it was picked to be ugly on purpose.
  - kyralis 3y ago
    The green predates the existence of iMessage. That green is the color that was used from the beginning of the iPhone in 2007; iMessage was only added in 2011. iMessage was given a different color than the preexisting one. Trying to claim that Apple picked an "ugly color to make you feel uncomfortable" is simply false.
    - enragedcacti 3y ago
      The original green bubbles used a different shade but more importantly they used black text. iOS 7 switched to white text and a shade of green that means the contrast for SMS failed Apple's own guidelines. Even for people with decent eye sight it can cause additional eye strain and be perceived as ugly even if the green on its own would be fine. To be fair the blue they choose is also not ideal, but it is a lot better than the green. https://medium.com/@krvoller/how-iphone-violates-apples-accessibility-guidelines-6785172eb343 https://medium.com/@krvoller/how-iphone-violates-apples-acce...
    - Lazonedo 3y ago
      iOS 4 : https://i.imgur.com/3LIpvX9.png https://i.imgur.com/3LIpvX9.png iOS 5 (introduction of iMessage) : https://i.imgur.com/v2Wths4.png https://i.imgur.com/v2Wths4.png iOS 7: https://i.imgur.com/7k8QL3z.png https://i.imgur.com/7k8QL3z.png Yes, it was green before, but it didn't look so vile. Since the redesign of iOS in 7 the difference of green vs blue is a difference in legibility.
- TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
  SMS can also cost money. There are plans that charge per SMS after X amount per month. It’s important users can tell if they are using SMS so they don’t get a giant phone bill at the end of the month.
- cma 3y ago
  White on green is one of the hardest color pairings to read due to how cone cells are distributed in the retina (this image isn't completely representative, in the fovea green gets even higher as a proportion): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoreceptor_cell#/media/File:ConeMosaics.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoreceptor_cell#/media/File... That's RGB lit up contrasted with just G lit up. One of the only worse pairings would be white on yellow, which would be RGB vs RG lit up, with the only distinguishing signal coming through blue, which we have the lowest resolution of. White on blue is RGB vs B, all the visual difference in RG which we have the highest resolution of. This is why you generally want different color schemes for light vs dark terminals, if the color saturation is high (saturated blue text on black is bad, saturated blue text on white is fine and vice versa for green and yellow).
throw0101a 3y ago
> I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing a shit job of integrating with a telecommunications standard and then slapping a green bubble on it to get their oblivious users to ostracize people's kids. The green bubble is there because in the past, when telcos charged money for individual SMS messages, green meant money. I.e., greenbacks, US dollars. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback * https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-of-green-and-greenback-in-american-english https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-o... Blue meant no charge for the message, since it went over the data plan and through Apple's servers. The tribal/clan split of iPhone/no-iPhone came later.

eropple 3y ago

Apple doesn't put a green bubble on SMS "to ostracize people's kids". Kids are ostracized just for having a default skin in Fortnite--because kids can be little shitheads. Apple differentiates because what you can do with SMS is different from what you can do with iMessage and that's a clear way to demonstrate it (and also to indicate if there's something weird going on when it changes from iMessage to SMS). RCS is a suboptimal standard, and while it's good that Apple will support it to try to de-jank mixed-platform group messaging, I'd expect it also to be a different color because RCS in turn introduces its own jank that iMessage doesn't have. So people who want to make up an Apple to get mad at will still have their chance, I guess.

Obscurity4340 3y ago
> what you can do is different Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level? Is it like "Signal" different or is it like "different" different? Edit: bonus points if you can offer why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone, as often it and WebKit seem to be behind most of the serious 0-days...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- scarface_74 3y ago
  I can edit an iMessage after sending it, I can use threads and it doesn’t require a cell carrier - just an Internet connection. It’s also e2e encrypted and I can optionally let people know I have do not disturb on. It integrates with sharing my location and I can tell when someone is actually typing
- marcellus23 3y ago
  > Can you talk a bit more about how iMessage is fundamentally diferent than SMS on the functionality level It's different in the same way every messaging app is different from SMS: * Group chats, with custom group names and icons * High quality images/videos * Reactions * Stickers * Rich link previews * Threads * etc. etc. > why iMessage is able to be the skeleton key into your iPhone I don't think a lot (any?) of the vulnerabilities are unique to iMessage. It's more about the fact that SMS/iMessage is a means for someone to send you data that's then parsed/decoded immediately by the system.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    Isnt that the reason sandboxes exist? I just feel like these thins happen way less often with Signal and [shudder] Whatsapp...
    - dmonitor 3y ago
      iMessage is a much juicier potential attack vector. over 50% of the US market (trends towards the richer half, too).
- TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
  Some carriers charge per SMS - after X SMSs per month. iMessage is completely free. Kind of important to be able to tell if you are burning up your SMS quota.
- Tagbert 3y ago
  Both iMessage and Webkit have to accept requests from unknown sources that can contain a wide variety of content type. some other content types, like EPS are themselves programming languages that could contain infiltration scripts. That is why Apple has dropped EPS support. Similar situation can happen for other kinds of image and video content. I don't know much about how iMessage communication is implemented but it does offer end to end encryption and supports richer interaction and content than plain SMS does. that was one of the reasons that Apple marked SMS clients with the green bubbles to indicate not to expect the same interaction with them. It was some little shits that turned that into an anti-status symbol.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    I just laugh because Signal is way better than all of this and—wouldn't ya know—the default is "blue bubbles". They are the ultimate blue bubble to me because its almost all yours and gives you way more control than anything else like iMessage and its all audited and open for examination (theoretically)
    - pertymcpert 3y ago
      Sorry in which way is Signal better?
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      Signal can be better in all ways except the one that matters most. Not a single person I communicate with uses it. So it's useless.
      - Obscurity4340 3y ago
        You gotta find a way to make it clear you dont consent to be sharing your stuff with anyone but you , case closed. It has all the same toys and whistles so theres just no excuse. Its a boundary and we all need to get real better at understanding and being respectful thereto. Only issue is if you want them more than they you, there's a bit of a dance to navigate . If the like Musk, send them to all his endorsementz. At the end of the day, it will have to be a negotiation at play and its more of a toughlove ultimatun purely for the area of which messenging platforms to engage with.
- andylynch 3y ago
  Different like … totally. SMS was part of the very early GSM design work in the mid ‘80s and is built into the network at a fundamental level (this is why the particular character limit etc etc)- it was designed in the GSM/SS7/ telco world and has been used for over thirty years. iMessage was designed and built by Apple as a single operator with virtually total control of the backend and user devices. They achieve similar results in completely different ways, the best analogy I can think of is how octopus’s and jellyfish can see too, but evolved eyes very different to our own.
ronyeh 3y ago
But they pick an ugly shade of green though. I currently have an iPhone 15 Pro Max and have also used Android devices in the past. I like to switch each time I get a new phone. Apple definitely picks an ugly color to make you feel uncomfortable texting with a non iPhone user. They should at least let users choose the color (which will never happen).
- ladberg 3y ago
  All texts were green for years before iMessage (and blue texts) existed, so I highly doubt it was picked to be ugly on purpose.
- kyralis 3y ago
  The green predates the existence of iMessage. That green is the color that was used from the beginning of the iPhone in 2007; iMessage was only added in 2011. iMessage was given a different color than the preexisting one. Trying to claim that Apple picked an "ugly color to make you feel uncomfortable" is simply false.
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    The original green bubbles used a different shade but more importantly they used black text. iOS 7 switched to white text and a shade of green that means the contrast for SMS failed Apple's own guidelines. Even for people with decent eye sight it can cause additional eye strain and be perceived as ugly even if the green on its own would be fine. To be fair the blue they choose is also not ideal, but it is a lot better than the green. https://medium.com/@krvoller/how-iphone-violates-apples-accessibility-guidelines-6785172eb343 https://medium.com/@krvoller/how-iphone-violates-apples-acce...
  - Lazonedo 3y ago
    iOS 4 : https://i.imgur.com/3LIpvX9.png https://i.imgur.com/3LIpvX9.png iOS 5 (introduction of iMessage) : https://i.imgur.com/v2Wths4.png https://i.imgur.com/v2Wths4.png iOS 7: https://i.imgur.com/7k8QL3z.png https://i.imgur.com/7k8QL3z.png Yes, it was green before, but it didn't look so vile. Since the redesign of iOS in 7 the difference of green vs blue is a difference in legibility.
TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
SMS can also cost money. There are plans that charge per SMS after X amount per month. It’s important users can tell if they are using SMS so they don’t get a giant phone bill at the end of the month.
cma 3y ago
White on green is one of the hardest color pairings to read due to how cone cells are distributed in the retina (this image isn't completely representative, in the fovea green gets even higher as a proportion): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoreceptor_cell#/media/File:ConeMosaics.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoreceptor_cell#/media/File... That's RGB lit up contrasted with just G lit up. One of the only worse pairings would be white on yellow, which would be RGB vs RG lit up, with the only distinguishing signal coming through blue, which we have the lowest resolution of. White on blue is RGB vs B, all the visual difference in RG which we have the highest resolution of. This is why you generally want different color schemes for light vs dark terminals, if the color saturation is high (saturated blue text on black is bad, saturated blue text on white is fine and vice versa for green and yellow).

throw0101a 3y ago

> I DO have an issue with them intentionally doing a shit job of integrating with a telecommunications standard and then slapping a green bubble on it to get their oblivious users to ostracize people's kids. The green bubble is there because in the past, when telcos charged money for individual SMS messages, green meant money. I.e., greenbacks, US dollars. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenback * https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-of-green-and-greenback-in-american-english https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263943/meaning-o... Blue meant no charge for the message, since it went over the data plan and through Apple's servers. The tribal/clan split of iPhone/no-iPhone came later.