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Messages inflexible reliance on SMS for communication to non-Apple devices is definitely an Apple issue, in my opinion. Apple has made it clear that they contin

Messages inflexible reliance on SMS for communication to non-Apple devices is definitely an Apple issue, in my opinion. Apple has made it clear that they continue to default to SMS for non-iPhone communication solely because it's unpleasant for everyone involved.

munk-a 3y ago
There's apparently even "green bubble bullying"[1] of kids who have Android devices and thus have their messages appear different. In this particular way Apple is happy compromising the mental health of young people to secure a larger market share - it's awful and they deserve a lot more negative PR for it. 1. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-teens-dread-the-green-text-bubble-11641618009 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > apparently even "green bubble bullying"[1] of kids who have Android devices and thus have their messages appear different Bullies will bully. Targeting the articles of bullying versus the source is fruitless; the former is unlimited.
- AYBABTME 3y ago
  > Apple is happy compromising the mental health of young people Dramatic exaggeration and attribution of evil intent is counterproductive and disingenuous.
- miki123211 3y ago
  On the other hand, I have saved many a dollar by instantly knowing that I just sent a legacy text to somebody I normally iMessage with. My carrier charges an arm and a leg for international texting, and if distinguishing between texts and iMessages wasn't as easy as it is, I would probably have to pay hundreds in carrier bills at least once.
- lxgr 3y ago
  > In this particular way Apple is happy compromising the mental health of young people to secure a larger market share Should we also force luxury brands to offer stipends so that teenagers whose parents can't afford them (or simply don't want to participate in that nonsense) don't feel stigmatized? It would be a completely different story if Apple were to ban third-party messaging apps on their platform, but as restrictive as they are in other areas, they aren't doing that. It literally only takes a free app download to get a cross-platform messaging experience at least on par with iMessage (and in my personal view superior in many regards).
- asoneth 3y ago
  Agreed. It reminds me of the "Blue eyes/Brown eyes" exercise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott) so let's say this was a real psychology experiment. Middle-schoolers and high-schoolers are encouraged to communicate via a chat application with rich multimedia functionality. But any conversation that includes even a single individual who belongs to an arbitrarily-defined "out-group" has its functionality degraded and the application highlights who the out-group member(s) are. After a year you compare the mental, social, physical, and academic well-being of both groups. Would your university's IRB approve such an experiment? I initially gave Apple the benefit of the doubt that this was simply a technical limitation. And of course kids will always bully each other about something. But at this point it does indeed seem like a billion-dollar company is intentionally amplifying and leveraging this sort of bullying to drive marketshare. If you don't find this immoral then I'm not sure what to say.
oarsinsync 3y ago
What does the default Android messaging app do?
- rezonant 3y ago
  Google Messages, which is fast becoming the default Android messaging app across Android OEMs uses RCS when both participants support it and falls back to SMS when that is not the case. RCS is an open standard that any carrier/OS/messaging app can support, unlike iMessage, which is exclusive to iPhones.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    That's exactly RCSs biggest problem: It requires active carrier support. (As far as I understand, Google runs the infrastructure for many international carriers at this point, but they still need to opt into that.) Using my phone number as an identifier and authentication factor for so many things these days is bad enough; I really don't want the messaging layer itself to touch my phone provider at all.
  - sneak 3y ago
    RCS-the-open-standard is not end to end encrypted.
- cmiles74 3y ago
  Android's messaging app does much the same thing. My preference would be that Apple drop SMS support from Messages all-together and market it as an iOS only communication method. People with iPhones would then have to pick some alternative, perhaps they would use Signal or perhaps something else. I already have to install a handful of applications to talk to all of my friends and co-workers, at least I wouldn't have to continue to use SMS.
  - StressedDev 3y ago
    As an iPhone user, I am happy with messages and do not want it to drop SMS support. Note Apple created iMessage way before RCS even existed. iMessage works well and I am happy with it.
JLCarveth 3y ago
https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/
- lxgr 3y ago
  RCS is Google's idea of a solution – a company not exactly widely known for their excellence in all things instant messaging.
  - JLCarveth 3y ago
    Do you have a source that it was started by Google? From looking around, they support its development but it was an industry initiative, and Samsung was one of the first OEMs to support it.
    - kalleboo 3y ago
      It was embraced and extended by Google.
      - JLCarveth 3y ago
        I was asking for a source so I could look further into this, do you have any?
        kalleboo 3y ago
        Neither me nor GP said that it was started by Google. Just that it was adopted by them as a solution.
        JLCarveth 3y ago
        Adopted by Google yes, but since when would Google adopting a technology give them full control over the future of that technology? Surely the other industry members who started RCS also have a say? And I would argue that the language used implies Google created RCS themselves (it was their idea): "RCS is Google's idea of a solution"

munk-a 3y ago

There's apparently even "green bubble bullying"[1] of kids who have Android devices and thus have their messages appear different. In this particular way Apple is happy compromising the mental health of young people to secure a larger market share - it's awful and they deserve a lot more negative PR for it. 1. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-teens-dread-the-green-text-bubble-11641618009 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-...

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> apparently even "green bubble bullying"[1] of kids who have Android devices and thus have their messages appear different Bullies will bully. Targeting the articles of bullying versus the source is fruitless; the former is unlimited.
AYBABTME 3y ago
> Apple is happy compromising the mental health of young people Dramatic exaggeration and attribution of evil intent is counterproductive and disingenuous.
miki123211 3y ago
On the other hand, I have saved many a dollar by instantly knowing that I just sent a legacy text to somebody I normally iMessage with. My carrier charges an arm and a leg for international texting, and if distinguishing between texts and iMessages wasn't as easy as it is, I would probably have to pay hundreds in carrier bills at least once.
lxgr 3y ago
> In this particular way Apple is happy compromising the mental health of young people to secure a larger market share Should we also force luxury brands to offer stipends so that teenagers whose parents can't afford them (or simply don't want to participate in that nonsense) don't feel stigmatized? It would be a completely different story if Apple were to ban third-party messaging apps on their platform, but as restrictive as they are in other areas, they aren't doing that. It literally only takes a free app download to get a cross-platform messaging experience at least on par with iMessage (and in my personal view superior in many regards).
asoneth 3y ago
Agreed. It reminds me of the "Blue eyes/Brown eyes" exercise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott) so let's say this was a real psychology experiment. Middle-schoolers and high-schoolers are encouraged to communicate via a chat application with rich multimedia functionality. But any conversation that includes even a single individual who belongs to an arbitrarily-defined "out-group" has its functionality degraded and the application highlights who the out-group member(s) are. After a year you compare the mental, social, physical, and academic well-being of both groups. Would your university's IRB approve such an experiment? I initially gave Apple the benefit of the doubt that this was simply a technical limitation. And of course kids will always bully each other about something. But at this point it does indeed seem like a billion-dollar company is intentionally amplifying and leveraging this sort of bullying to drive marketshare. If you don't find this immoral then I'm not sure what to say.

oarsinsync 3y ago

What does the default Android messaging app do?

rezonant 3y ago
Google Messages, which is fast becoming the default Android messaging app across Android OEMs uses RCS when both participants support it and falls back to SMS when that is not the case. RCS is an open standard that any carrier/OS/messaging app can support, unlike iMessage, which is exclusive to iPhones.
- lxgr 3y ago
  That's exactly RCSs biggest problem: It requires active carrier support. (As far as I understand, Google runs the infrastructure for many international carriers at this point, but they still need to opt into that.) Using my phone number as an identifier and authentication factor for so many things these days is bad enough; I really don't want the messaging layer itself to touch my phone provider at all.
- sneak 3y ago
  RCS-the-open-standard is not end to end encrypted.
cmiles74 3y ago
Android's messaging app does much the same thing. My preference would be that Apple drop SMS support from Messages all-together and market it as an iOS only communication method. People with iPhones would then have to pick some alternative, perhaps they would use Signal or perhaps something else. I already have to install a handful of applications to talk to all of my friends and co-workers, at least I wouldn't have to continue to use SMS.
- StressedDev 3y ago
  As an iPhone user, I am happy with messages and do not want it to drop SMS support. Note Apple created iMessage way before RCS even existed. iMessage works well and I am happy with it.

JLCarveth 3y ago

https://www.android.com/get-the-message/ https://www.android.com/get-the-message/

lxgr 3y ago
RCS is Google's idea of a solution – a company not exactly widely known for their excellence in all things instant messaging.
- JLCarveth 3y ago
  Do you have a source that it was started by Google? From looking around, they support its development but it was an industry initiative, and Samsung was one of the first OEMs to support it.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    It was embraced and extended by Google.
    - JLCarveth 3y ago
      I was asking for a source so I could look further into this, do you have any?
      - kalleboo 3y ago
        Neither me nor GP said that it was started by Google. Just that it was adopted by them as a solution.
        JLCarveth 3y ago
        Adopted by Google yes, but since when would Google adopting a technology give them full control over the future of that technology? Surely the other industry members who started RCS also have a say? And I would argue that the language used implies Google created RCS themselves (it was their idea): "RCS is Google's idea of a solution"