3 ms·

Settlements in the West Bank are the culprit. When settlers settle in some area, they need protection. Barriers, permanent road closures, security gates, even w

Settlements in the West Bank are the culprit. When settlers settle in some area, they need protection. Barriers, permanent road closures, security gates, even welding the doors facing roads that are used exclusively by non-Palestinians, surveillance-these protective measures cause huge inconvenience to non-Jewish people (both Christians and Muslims) in the West Bank. Whether one calls it apartheid or not, Israelis and their government should find a way to resolve the problem of protecting settlers at the cost of others. Otherwise, it can create a huge backlash across the world: (a) Al Jazeera and social media have showed these to the outside world (b) support for Israel is waning in the West--especially among liberals (c) there is even less support for Israel among the younger generation in the West, so expect more backlash from the future policy makers.

tasn 3y ago
I hate the settlements as much (or more) as the next guy, but I respectfully disagree. West Bank is not Gaza. Israel FORCIBLY removed all of the settlements from Gaza in 2006, and look where this got us. There is nothing going on in Gaza, and that's still the source of the conflict, the West Bank is chill in comparison. Also, when Israel left the settlements in Gaza they left behind factories, crops, housing, everything. Did Palestinians move there? Use the resources? No, they turned them into terrorist training grounds. :| I think the settlements are terrible, and we should destroy all of them, but this is just classic PR switcheroo. As I said, West Bank is not Gaza, they have a different government, the West Bank is flourishing and the quality of life there is great. Leaving Gaza and removing all the Israeli forces from there ended up being worst, not better for the people of Gaza.
- raincom 3y ago
  I am quite sympathetic to the view point that Arab countries don't want a Jewish state in the middle east, and that when Muslims become majority, they don't want to peacefully co-exist with Jews and others. I am not ignorant about Gaza and the West bank are different. There are so many people out there who explain Hamas' attack in terms of these: (a) Israel subverting two-state solution (b) apartheid in the West bank in order to protect settlers. This view point has many supporters even among non-Muslims in the West. What do you say about that to those who condemn Hamas' attack on Oct 7 and who also subscribe to the foregoing explanation?
jfengel 3y ago
Israel's treatment of West Bank settlements is indeed abusive and bad faith. It's the result of a fanatical subset of Israelis who are influential in its right-wing government. The current government has a lot to answer for -- including a series of corruption trials. But Gaza is not the West Bank. They are geographically and politically separate. Gaza is in the opposite position: Israel withdrew its settlements. They allowed Hamas to take over the government. Some claim that was a deliberate choice by that same right-wing government, to make it seem as if Palestinians were incapable of governing themselves. (I cannot vouch for the truth of that, but it's clear that Israel did not approach its abandonment of Gaza entirely in good faith.) Nonetheless, there's no way to justify Hamas' attack on October 7 in terms of the West Bank situation. It has nothing to do with sympathy over settlers. It's entirely due to a dedicated campaign of genocide against Jews, explicitly referenced in the Hamas charter. What's happening in the West Bank might be described as apartheid. But the situation in Gaza makes it clear that it's not mere racism. There is a genuine threat, not just of attack but of atrocities. I think that makes it harder to justify comparisons to South Africa, which deliberately gloss over real horrors. It's hard to attribute that deliberate ignorance to anything other than antisemitism.
- raincom 3y ago
  Orthodox Jewish folks don't need to serve in IDF, and yet they produce more kids. So, more votes and better poll participation from the Orthodox side skew these problems. That's what I heard on some show. I am not justifying Hamas' attack on Israeli people. What does a justification do, anyway? It transforms unjust acts into just acts using some or another theory, ideology, etc. With this side comment out of the way, how do you explain Hamas' attacks, major support for Hamas from Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem? One explanation most people seem to accept is that folks in Gaza are bottled up, such a pressure cooker just blew up. Another related explanation: Israel has subverted two-state solution, leading to pressure cooker situation. I have no problems in accepting the claim that they are anti-Jewish and that they don't want a Jewish state in the Middle East. That's what many a muslim would say in private conversations. This discussion can't be had in the West today, due to political correctness: when Islam is power or when Islam dominates a society, they have problems with non-Islamic people (history of Islam shows that). When Islam is in minority or lacks the power, different tunes are sung.

tasn 3y ago

I hate the settlements as much (or more) as the next guy, but I respectfully disagree. West Bank is not Gaza. Israel FORCIBLY removed all of the settlements from Gaza in 2006, and look where this got us. There is nothing going on in Gaza, and that's still the source of the conflict, the West Bank is chill in comparison. Also, when Israel left the settlements in Gaza they left behind factories, crops, housing, everything. Did Palestinians move there? Use the resources? No, they turned them into terrorist training grounds. :| I think the settlements are terrible, and we should destroy all of them, but this is just classic PR switcheroo. As I said, West Bank is not Gaza, they have a different government, the West Bank is flourishing and the quality of life there is great. Leaving Gaza and removing all the Israeli forces from there ended up being worst, not better for the people of Gaza.

raincom 3y ago
I am quite sympathetic to the view point that Arab countries don't want a Jewish state in the middle east, and that when Muslims become majority, they don't want to peacefully co-exist with Jews and others. I am not ignorant about Gaza and the West bank are different. There are so many people out there who explain Hamas' attack in terms of these: (a) Israel subverting two-state solution (b) apartheid in the West bank in order to protect settlers. This view point has many supporters even among non-Muslims in the West. What do you say about that to those who condemn Hamas' attack on Oct 7 and who also subscribe to the foregoing explanation?

jfengel 3y ago

Israel's treatment of West Bank settlements is indeed abusive and bad faith. It's the result of a fanatical subset of Israelis who are influential in its right-wing government. The current government has a lot to answer for -- including a series of corruption trials. But Gaza is not the West Bank. They are geographically and politically separate. Gaza is in the opposite position: Israel withdrew its settlements. They allowed Hamas to take over the government. Some claim that was a deliberate choice by that same right-wing government, to make it seem as if Palestinians were incapable of governing themselves. (I cannot vouch for the truth of that, but it's clear that Israel did not approach its abandonment of Gaza entirely in good faith.) Nonetheless, there's no way to justify Hamas' attack on October 7 in terms of the West Bank situation. It has nothing to do with sympathy over settlers. It's entirely due to a dedicated campaign of genocide against Jews, explicitly referenced in the Hamas charter. What's happening in the West Bank might be described as apartheid. But the situation in Gaza makes it clear that it's not mere racism. There is a genuine threat, not just of attack but of atrocities. I think that makes it harder to justify comparisons to South Africa, which deliberately gloss over real horrors. It's hard to attribute that deliberate ignorance to anything other than antisemitism.

raincom 3y ago
Orthodox Jewish folks don't need to serve in IDF, and yet they produce more kids. So, more votes and better poll participation from the Orthodox side skew these problems. That's what I heard on some show. I am not justifying Hamas' attack on Israeli people. What does a justification do, anyway? It transforms unjust acts into just acts using some or another theory, ideology, etc. With this side comment out of the way, how do you explain Hamas' attacks, major support for Hamas from Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem? One explanation most people seem to accept is that folks in Gaza are bottled up, such a pressure cooker just blew up. Another related explanation: Israel has subverted two-state solution, leading to pressure cooker situation. I have no problems in accepting the claim that they are anti-Jewish and that they don't want a Jewish state in the Middle East. That's what many a muslim would say in private conversations. This discussion can't be had in the West today, due to political correctness: when Islam is power or when Islam dominates a society, they have problems with non-Islamic people (history of Islam shows that). When Islam is in minority or lacks the power, different tunes are sung.