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It's reasonable - I think they just want to be able to get policy in place before we have politicians typing in state secrets like "How can I get Rutte to _____

It's reasonable - I think they just want to be able to get policy in place before we have politicians typing in state secrets like "How can I get Rutte to _____?" I wouldn't like it (also Dutch, hallo!).

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Wasn't there a major Dutch scandal involving families wrongfully being denied welfare on the basis of "the algorithm said so"?
- deafpolygon 3y ago
  Indeed! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand...
- interactivecode 3y ago
  Indeed, though that wasn't AI, that was direct discrimination and racism hidden behind a thin layer of policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand...
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, there definitely was and it wasn't so much driven by the tech itself as it was by the need to be seen to be doing something against perceived fraud by minorities which led to mass profiling and huge fall-out (and too little, in my opinion). It was effectively racism under a thin veneer of plausible deniability provided by technology. Tech by itself can be bad enough, tech wielded to achieve nebulous goals without any consideration for the human side of the effects is outright dangerous.
  - em500 3y ago
    > by the need to be seen to be doing something against perceived fraud by minorities which led to mass profiling and huge fall-out It was not only perceived fraud by minorities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal?#Emergence_of_fraudulent_childminding_agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal?#Bulgarian_migrant_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand... Most practitioners can tell you that naive anti-crime initiatives often end up targeting minorities. In many Western countries, minorities are significantly over-represented in crime and jail statistics (compared to the general population). Is that ipso facto racism or racial profiling?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      This is exactly the kind of thinking that caused this whole thing to spiral out of control. The little bit of fraud that was uncovered did not justify declaring a very large fraction of the Dutch population as fraudulent. I'm kind of surprised that your takeaway is exactly of the kind that has been proven to be utterly wrong and counterproductive during this whole affair. Yes, what you are advocating for is racism and racial profiling.
- WJW 3y ago
  It's a little bit more complicated than that, it was "the rules said so" and then they just used humans to check if people used the rules. The government at the time was very hard on fraud after a couple of high-profile fraud cases by immigrants. Mostly Bulgarians falsely claiming welfare Anyway, several ministers and other high officials pressured the welfare department to be hard on fraud, which caused the imposition of harsh fines for minor filing errors. The department also got into a bit of a witch hunt were anyone being investigated for fraud was almost always presumed to be guilty. This, combined with the fact that most of the welfare recipients were not very educated, didn't speak Dutch all that well and/or were under a lot of stress due to being generally economically disadvantaged, led to some big fines levied against people who didn't objectively do all that much wrong. Several of them lost their homes or got deep into debt due to the fines and legal costs. Simply claiming it was "the algorithm said so" skips over all the history about why the rules were written the way they were, and the human errors made along the way.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Wasn't there a major Dutch scandal involving families wrongfully being denied welfare on the basis of "the algorithm said so"?

deafpolygon 3y ago
Indeed! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand...
interactivecode 3y ago
Indeed, though that wasn't AI, that was direct discrimination and racism hidden behind a thin layer of policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand...
jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, there definitely was and it wasn't so much driven by the tech itself as it was by the need to be seen to be doing something against perceived fraud by minorities which led to mass profiling and huge fall-out (and too little, in my opinion). It was effectively racism under a thin veneer of plausible deniability provided by technology. Tech by itself can be bad enough, tech wielded to achieve nebulous goals without any consideration for the human side of the effects is outright dangerous.
- em500 3y ago
  > by the need to be seen to be doing something against perceived fraud by minorities which led to mass profiling and huge fall-out It was not only perceived fraud by minorities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal?#Emergence_of_fraudulent_childminding_agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal?#Bulgarian_migrant_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand... Most practitioners can tell you that naive anti-crime initiatives often end up targeting minorities. In many Western countries, minorities are significantly over-represented in crime and jail statistics (compared to the general population). Is that ipso facto racism or racial profiling?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    This is exactly the kind of thinking that caused this whole thing to spiral out of control. The little bit of fraud that was uncovered did not justify declaring a very large fraction of the Dutch population as fraudulent. I'm kind of surprised that your takeaway is exactly of the kind that has been proven to be utterly wrong and counterproductive during this whole affair. Yes, what you are advocating for is racism and racial profiling.
WJW 3y ago
It's a little bit more complicated than that, it was "the rules said so" and then they just used humans to check if people used the rules. The government at the time was very hard on fraud after a couple of high-profile fraud cases by immigrants. Mostly Bulgarians falsely claiming welfare Anyway, several ministers and other high officials pressured the welfare department to be hard on fraud, which caused the imposition of harsh fines for minor filing errors. The department also got into a bit of a witch hunt were anyone being investigated for fraud was almost always presumed to be guilty. This, combined with the fact that most of the welfare recipients were not very educated, didn't speak Dutch all that well and/or were under a lot of stress due to being generally economically disadvantaged, led to some big fines levied against people who didn't objectively do all that much wrong. Several of them lost their homes or got deep into debt due to the fines and legal costs. Simply claiming it was "the algorithm said so" skips over all the history about why the rules were written the way they were, and the human errors made along the way.