4 ms·

Agree - as someone who took Adderall in highschool and college, and has started taking it again as an executive in my career, I always took it to be able to han

Agree - as someone who took Adderall in highschool and college, and has started taking it again as an executive in my career, I always took it to be able to handle multitasking more efficiently with less distraction, and to motivate an action to be performed vs procrastinating. A test in which you HAVE to get a job done and you're being monitored and timed - I wouldn't expect a large improvement in results with 'smart drugs'. I think it would be much more interesting to watch study or work habits while under the influence of these smart drugs, measured in pages reviewed/written or emails sent or slides created or phone calls made, etc. True measures of productivity without knowing someone is looking over your shoulder. Also notice as I take my "smart drugs" my ability to focus in meetings is increased, and therefore allows me to better recall information in subsequent days... vs when not on meds I'm constantly distracted and my memory is much more foggy, especially specifics or details.

FFP999 3y ago
> I think it would be much more interesting to watch study or work habits while under the influence of these smart drugs, measured in pages reviewed/written or emails sent or slides created or phone calls made, etc. True measures of productivity... I think you've confused "productivity" with "bulk". Do you evaluate engineers by how many lines of source code they write in a day?
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  Ask yourself what is actually required to succeed in academia
  - FFP999 3y ago
    The ability to kowtow to corporate foundations to get funding?
  - bumby 3y ago
    Depends on level, no? Certainly it seems higher up (PhD or other research-oriented role), rote busy work may be necessary from time to time, but it also requires more creative work trying to synthesize new ideas.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      ADHD has too much creativity and barely any capacity for bulk, so trading a bit of that creativity to do the bulk work is worth it. Imagine if your brain refuses to do worthless uncreative work, that is ADHD, it is great for coming up with ideas but sucks for doing the work you often have to do.
      - bumby 3y ago
        I agree with you there. But the thrust of the article was using drugs as “cognitive enhancers” not to treat a medical condition of ADHD. Bringing someone up to baseline is one thing, but this is not that.
- breakfastduck 3y ago
  I think you're missing the point. If you struggle with ADHD / executive dysfunction, there is a material benefit to measuring by those in that kind of job. Ultimately it is not that you're at a normal baseline and these things just make you do more busy work, it's that you struggle to keep up with so many competing priorities and demands that you end up dealing with none of it. So yes, for this purpose, that measure is worthwhile in this case.
  - poultron 3y ago
    This is well said. People who dont have ADHD or a similar cognitive dysfunction look at smart drugs as a boost above average to gain high performance - because they havent experienced ADHD or dismiss it. Unfortunately the reality is that folks with ADHD typically feel very below average regardless of their IQ, missing out on meeting details, falling behind in work, procrastinating severely vs their peers. Adderall makes me think "so this is what everyone else feels like" when I take it, and I can just get things done at the most simple levels.
    - bt4u 3y ago
      [dead]
- n8cpdx 3y ago
  Lots of jobs do actually involve bulk reading and writing with relatively low quality targets. Lawyers and assistants being the prime examples. Also, almost all of undergrad for many, many degrees.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
pookha 3y ago
I get distracted easier if my diet is awful (which it has been in the past)... Refined carbs, sugar, tap water (fluoride in tap water is insane:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/) and highly processed foods. Switch to a diet high in nitric oxide and run and I'm a much better problem solver. And I have no desire to work "for fourteen straight hours" and I'll find another job if I'm being asked too.
- satellite2 3y ago
  The study on fluoride level is basically garbage. It's pure randomness and the IQ level is probably only correlated to the affluence of the region. Just look at the results https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/table/T1/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/table/T... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/figure/G2/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/figure/...
  - pookha 3y ago
    What about these? https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/ntp/about_ntp/bsc/2023/fluoride/documents_provided_bsc_wg_031523.pdf https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/ntp/about_ntp/... "This review finds, with moderate confidence, that higher fluoride exposure (e.g., represented by populations whose total fluoride exposure approximates or exceeds the World Health Organization Guidelines for Drinking-water Quality of 1.5 mg/L of fluoride) is consistently associated with lower IQ in children." https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-children... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25446012/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25446012/ You don't seriously think that drinking fluoride is OK? It's been studied to death and it's obvious at this point that long term fluoride exposure causes developmental neurotoxicity. Multiple countries have sponsored these studies and they show negative correlations to IQ and an increase in fluoride. They've demonstrated this in rats with sodium fluoride as well.
    - satellite2 3y ago
Aurornis 3y ago
> and to motivate an action to be performed vs procrastinating I’ve watched several peers go down the path of trying to use stimulants for motivation starting in college and again later in my career. There’s no denying that it works at first. They are stimulants, after all, and they stimulate people especially well when they first start taking them. The problem is that the motivation from stimulants is famously prone to tolerance and rebound effects. It’s also very prone to habit-forming associations. I’ve noticed several people try to use prescription stimulants in an “as needed” fashion when they need to get a lot of work done quickly and they don’t really want to do it. It doesn’t take long before it’s obvious to their friends and coworkers when they’re having an off day or an on day, even though they might deny any rebound effect. It gets scary when they do this so long that they forget how to self-motivate without taking stimulants because they’ve built such a strong mental association between “I have a lot of work to do” being a trigger for “I should take another pill today” or even “I’ll save this work until tomorrow when I can take a pill”. It gets even scarier when tolerance sets in (to the motivating/stimulating effect, not so much the intended attention-enhancing effect) and they’re now flirting with escalating doses, double doses, combinations with ‘nootropics’ to boost effects or ‘reduce tolerance’ and other slippery slopes. The short-term productivity boost shouldn’t be denied, but I think it’s also short-sighted to hold these drugs up as a free lunch productivity boost. Let’s be honest: A little experimenting here and there isn’t going to show tolerance, extensive rebound, psychological associations, or other effects, but that’s also what gets people in trouble when they start to think it’s a free lunch. There’s a reason the traditional ADHD treatment approach involves taking the same dose every day rather than encouraging the patient to build psychological associations between taking the drug to alter their mood state. The strange part about this conversation is that if I wrote all of the above text about drinking 2 energy drinks at the start of a work day, few people would argue with it. The tolerance, rebound, and dependence effects of caffeine seem to be well known in pop culture. For some reason people with a little exposure to prescription stimulants seem to think that the normal rules don’t apply to them, at least at first. A lot of people who have minimal or sporadic experience with stimulants seem to think they’re no-strings-attached productivity boosts, but there’s no free lunch. The brain will adapt over time.
- WalterBright 3y ago

FFP999 3y ago

> I think it would be much more interesting to watch study or work habits while under the influence of these smart drugs, measured in pages reviewed/written or emails sent or slides created or phone calls made, etc. True measures of productivity... I think you've confused "productivity" with "bulk". Do you evaluate engineers by how many lines of source code they write in a day?

Slava_Propanei 3y ago
Ask yourself what is actually required to succeed in academia
- FFP999 3y ago
  The ability to kowtow to corporate foundations to get funding?
- bumby 3y ago
  Depends on level, no? Certainly it seems higher up (PhD or other research-oriented role), rote busy work may be necessary from time to time, but it also requires more creative work trying to synthesize new ideas.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    ADHD has too much creativity and barely any capacity for bulk, so trading a bit of that creativity to do the bulk work is worth it. Imagine if your brain refuses to do worthless uncreative work, that is ADHD, it is great for coming up with ideas but sucks for doing the work you often have to do.
    - bumby 3y ago
      I agree with you there. But the thrust of the article was using drugs as “cognitive enhancers” not to treat a medical condition of ADHD. Bringing someone up to baseline is one thing, but this is not that.
breakfastduck 3y ago
I think you're missing the point. If you struggle with ADHD / executive dysfunction, there is a material benefit to measuring by those in that kind of job. Ultimately it is not that you're at a normal baseline and these things just make you do more busy work, it's that you struggle to keep up with so many competing priorities and demands that you end up dealing with none of it. So yes, for this purpose, that measure is worthwhile in this case.
- poultron 3y ago
  This is well said. People who dont have ADHD or a similar cognitive dysfunction look at smart drugs as a boost above average to gain high performance - because they havent experienced ADHD or dismiss it. Unfortunately the reality is that folks with ADHD typically feel very below average regardless of their IQ, missing out on meeting details, falling behind in work, procrastinating severely vs their peers. Adderall makes me think "so this is what everyone else feels like" when I take it, and I can just get things done at the most simple levels.
  - bt4u 3y ago
    [dead]
n8cpdx 3y ago
Lots of jobs do actually involve bulk reading and writing with relatively low quality targets. Lawyers and assistants being the prime examples. Also, almost all of undergrad for many, many degrees.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

pookha 3y ago

I get distracted easier if my diet is awful (which it has been in the past)... Refined carbs, sugar, tap water (fluoride in tap water is insane:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/) and highly processed foods. Switch to a diet high in nitric oxide and run and I'm a much better problem solver. And I have no desire to work "for fourteen straight hours" and I'll find another job if I'm being asked too.

satellite2 3y ago
The study on fluoride level is basically garbage. It's pure randomness and the IQ level is probably only correlated to the affluence of the region. Just look at the results https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/table/T1/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/table/T... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/figure/G2/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5285601/figure/...
- pookha 3y ago
  What about these? https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/ntp/about_ntp/bsc/2023/fluoride/documents_provided_bsc_wg_031523.pdf https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/ntp/about_ntp/... "This review finds, with moderate confidence, that higher fluoride exposure (e.g., represented by populations whose total fluoride exposure approximates or exceeds the World Health Organization Guidelines for Drinking-water Quality of 1.5 mg/L of fluoride) is consistently associated with lower IQ in children." https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-children... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25446012/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25446012/ You don't seriously think that drinking fluoride is OK? It's been studied to death and it's obvious at this point that long term fluoride exposure causes developmental neurotoxicity. Multiple countries have sponsored these studies and they show negative correlations to IQ and an increase in fluoride. They've demonstrated this in rats with sodium fluoride as well.
  - satellite2 3y ago

Aurornis 3y ago

> and to motivate an action to be performed vs procrastinating I’ve watched several peers go down the path of trying to use stimulants for motivation starting in college and again later in my career. There’s no denying that it works at first. They are stimulants, after all, and they stimulate people especially well when they first start taking them. The problem is that the motivation from stimulants is famously prone to tolerance and rebound effects. It’s also very prone to habit-forming associations. I’ve noticed several people try to use prescription stimulants in an “as needed” fashion when they need to get a lot of work done quickly and they don’t really want to do it. It doesn’t take long before it’s obvious to their friends and coworkers when they’re having an off day or an on day, even though they might deny any rebound effect. It gets scary when they do this so long that they forget how to self-motivate without taking stimulants because they’ve built such a strong mental association between “I have a lot of work to do” being a trigger for “I should take another pill today” or even “I’ll save this work until tomorrow when I can take a pill”. It gets even scarier when tolerance sets in (to the motivating/stimulating effect, not so much the intended attention-enhancing effect) and they’re now flirting with escalating doses, double doses, combinations with ‘nootropics’ to boost effects or ‘reduce tolerance’ and other slippery slopes. The short-term productivity boost shouldn’t be denied, but I think it’s also short-sighted to hold these drugs up as a free lunch productivity boost. Let’s be honest: A little experimenting here and there isn’t going to show tolerance, extensive rebound, psychological associations, or other effects, but that’s also what gets people in trouble when they start to think it’s a free lunch. There’s a reason the traditional ADHD treatment approach involves taking the same dose every day rather than encouraging the patient to build psychological associations between taking the drug to alter their mood state. The strange part about this conversation is that if I wrote all of the above text about drinking 2 energy drinks at the start of a work day, few people would argue with it. The tolerance, rebound, and dependence effects of caffeine seem to be well known in pop culture. For some reason people with a little exposure to prescription stimulants seem to think that the normal rules don’t apply to them, at least at first. A lot of people who have minimal or sporadic experience with stimulants seem to think they’re no-strings-attached productivity boosts, but there’s no free lunch. The brain will adapt over time.

WalterBright 3y ago