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> really think people take for granted how much better UIs do this stuff now because best practices have improved. We had these things figured out in the lat

> really think people take for granted how much better UIs do this stuff now because best practices have improved. We had these things figured out in the late 90s already. - Menus were single click, and hierarchially organised - The hierarchy was similar between programs - Everything was text, no one had to guess what "tiny arrow inside a box" means - Everything looked the same, because everything used the same widgets - Common functions were placed in menus that were labeled the same across applications - Menu-Items were directly labeled with their shortcuts if they had any - Hover-Tooltips have been a basic widget of GUI libs for ages Sure, they didn't win any design awards, but they worked. In all their boring, obvious blandness, they worked, and they were easy to use. And that's the most important thing. > removing _unnecessary_ jargon Please tell me what is "_unnecessary_ jargon" in things like "File", "Edit", "New", "Preferences", "Save As...", "Tools", "Layout" or "Help"? > I'm talking about software that casual non-techy people would often use. As am I. These problems plague many many popular apps as well. Where is the account setting? Behind my profile picture? In a sub-hamburger? In the App-Settings? Where is the sub hamburger? Topright, mid-bottom, only visible when the display is in landscape mode? Do I have to swipe the menu in? If so, from which direction and with how many fingers? That professional complex software is plagued by this as well is a personal gripe for me as a tech person, but these problems are universal.

seanwilson 3y ago
I gave examples of specific best practice trends that are more common now compared to before. I didn't say everything is better so I'm not sure where your rant is targeted and it would help if you could interpret more charitably. I agree menus, predictable locations for features, and keyboard shortcuts are great. You're again comparing the best of then to the worst of now though. Standards for things like this will likely settle in over time. When apps now need to have support for touch + trackpads + mouse + keyboard, mobile/tablet/desktop screens, and multi-platform (Mac, Windows, iOS, Android, Linux), it's really shaken things up and made it much harder to agree and standardise on common patterns.
- usrbinbash 3y ago
  > You're again comparing the best of then to the worst of now though. No, I am comparing what was common then to what's common now. Granted, the menu structure of apps back then was in large part common, because there was only the desktop, and GUI programming was still in its infancy, so everyone used the same widgets. And no, I am not saying that everything back then was great. There absolutely were apps with shite interfaces. Only it was a lot harder to justify them. > Standards for things like this will likely settle in over time. Some will, but since we made the transition from building interfaces to designing them, agreeing on standards became much much harder. Because now interfaces are the playground of marketing, brand recognition, product identity and design fads. Even explaining how an app works can be hard, because the person asking me could be in another group in some godamn A/B test and have a different one, even though we use the same App. > When apps now need to have support for touch + trackpads + mouse + keyboard, mobile/tablet/desktop screens, and multi-platform That certainly makes it more difficult, and requires careful consideration for different platforms. So riddle me this: Why was common the reaction of all these different requirements to suddenly pretend everyone is using a phone for everything all the time? Because that's how many apps and websites now look: Like something designed for a small phone screen and navigation by thumb. I open a website on a 4K monitor with a laser-precision pointing device, and I get an information density comparable to the intergalactic void.
  - seanwilson 3y ago
    > So riddle me this: Why was common the reaction of all these different requirements to suddenly pretend everyone is using a phone for everything all the time? It's very resource intensive and challenging to design multiple interfaces is the obvious answer here. Designing a website with just a few interactions that's accessible, supports mobile and desktop screens, and works in all browsers is already challenging and time consuming enough. Asking for almost a separate interface for different screen sizes and more costs significant resources that many won't have. > Because that's how many apps and websites now look: Like something designed for a small phone screen and navigation by thumb. I open a website on a 4K monitor with a laser-precision pointing device, and I get an information density comparable to the intergalactic void. What websites and apps in particular? I agree lazy mobile ports exist and are bad but I'm not experiencing this often with my daily apps and websites.

seanwilson 3y ago

I gave examples of specific best practice trends that are more common now compared to before. I didn't say everything is better so I'm not sure where your rant is targeted and it would help if you could interpret more charitably. I agree menus, predictable locations for features, and keyboard shortcuts are great. You're again comparing the best of then to the worst of now though. Standards for things like this will likely settle in over time. When apps now need to have support for touch + trackpads + mouse + keyboard, mobile/tablet/desktop screens, and multi-platform (Mac, Windows, iOS, Android, Linux), it's really shaken things up and made it much harder to agree and standardise on common patterns.

usrbinbash 3y ago
> You're again comparing the best of then to the worst of now though. No, I am comparing what was common then to what's common now. Granted, the menu structure of apps back then was in large part common, because there was only the desktop, and GUI programming was still in its infancy, so everyone used the same widgets. And no, I am not saying that everything back then was great. There absolutely were apps with shite interfaces. Only it was a lot harder to justify them. > Standards for things like this will likely settle in over time. Some will, but since we made the transition from building interfaces to designing them, agreeing on standards became much much harder. Because now interfaces are the playground of marketing, brand recognition, product identity and design fads. Even explaining how an app works can be hard, because the person asking me could be in another group in some godamn A/B test and have a different one, even though we use the same App. > When apps now need to have support for touch + trackpads + mouse + keyboard, mobile/tablet/desktop screens, and multi-platform That certainly makes it more difficult, and requires careful consideration for different platforms. So riddle me this: Why was common the reaction of all these different requirements to suddenly pretend everyone is using a phone for everything all the time? Because that's how many apps and websites now look: Like something designed for a small phone screen and navigation by thumb. I open a website on a 4K monitor with a laser-precision pointing device, and I get an information density comparable to the intergalactic void.
- seanwilson 3y ago
  > So riddle me this: Why was common the reaction of all these different requirements to suddenly pretend everyone is using a phone for everything all the time? It's very resource intensive and challenging to design multiple interfaces is the obvious answer here. Designing a website with just a few interactions that's accessible, supports mobile and desktop screens, and works in all browsers is already challenging and time consuming enough. Asking for almost a separate interface for different screen sizes and more costs significant resources that many won't have. > Because that's how many apps and websites now look: Like something designed for a small phone screen and navigation by thumb. I open a website on a 4K monitor with a laser-precision pointing device, and I get an information density comparable to the intergalactic void. What websites and apps in particular? I agree lazy mobile ports exist and are bad but I'm not experiencing this often with my daily apps and websites.