6 ms·

As a Jew, please let me note: these people are extremists. They are not representative of the majority of supporters of Israel around the world. They are not re

by bradrn 3y ago

As a Jew, please let me note: these people are extremists. They are not representative of the majority of supporters of Israel around the world. They are not representative of the viewpoints of many Jews. And even in Israel their views are highly controversial, and actively opposed by large segments of the population. (Look up the recent protests if you want proof.) So please don’t assume, as many people do, that all Jews everywhere — or all Israel-supporters — subscribe to these same views. Many of us disagree with them as vehemently as you do.

jampekka 3y ago
Quite a chunk of Israel's population seem to be extemists, as these extremists are literally in the government. Also majority of Israeli voters don't seem to mind empowering these extremists to further their own interests (this is of course not specific to Israel, although endorsing and actually enacting genocide level extremists are rather rare). Look at the previous protests where palestinian protestors were vilified from all sides.
- tasn 3y ago
  They are not literally the government, they are a small part of the government (still troubling!). This was mainly because Ben Gvir promised security and being "tough on terror" and people bought into his propaganda and voted for him. I doubt this will be repeated in the next elections. There have been massive (unprecedented in Israeli history) demonstrations in Israel for the last 10 months against this terrible government that formed and their attempts at destroying the country.
  - jampekka 3y ago
    I said in the goverment. Typically having a minister is the definition of being in the government. That they are not a larger part is of course a good thing. The protests were not about the genocide and apartheid. They were mostly about the interal power struggle, which is all well and good, but not protesting against genocide and apartheid per se.
    - tasn 3y ago
      Apologies, I missed the "in", but my comment still applies to the sentence right after and the overall sentiment. The protests were against the government as a whole and many of their actions including their messianic ambitions which include settlements (was a main point of discussion, though sometimes overshadowed by their attempt to weaken the legal institutions). I really don't want to get into politics on HN, but there is no genocide nor apartheid, this is just Hammas propaganda. Israel has the means to kill Palestinians and it doesn't. There are Muslims and Arabs in the Israeli legislative body, including ones that say that Israel shouldn't exist. How is this apartheid? Anyhow, even with the above, there were in fact a lot of pro Palestinian and anti settlement demonstrations during these demonstrations. How do I know? I've been to these demonstrations and saw the signs and Palestinian flags.
      - jampekka 3y ago
        Amnesty, HRW and UN, among others, characterize the situation as apartheid. Are these part of the Hamas propaganda machinery too? Politicians in Israeli gov have called for ethnic clensings. Legal privileges based on ethnicity are quite rare, at least for "western democracies". There were indeed some Palestinian flags in the protests, but they weren't exactly warmly welcomed. I'm of course relying on what I read. https://archive.is/pgh1S https://archive.is/pgh1S
        tasn 3y ago
        Palestinian flags: the article you showed was from the first demonstration (or one of the first). There were many more in future ones and no clashes. FWIW I personally think raising the flag of an enemy state is distasteful, but Israel is a democracy. The UN still hasn't condemned the October 7th attack nor Hammas's use of civilians as human shields. Not sure about the rest. So I wouldn't call them an unbiased authority. Politicians in Israel have called for ethnic cleansing, fringe crazy politicians. Marjorie Taylor green blamed California wildfires on Jewish space lasers. I hope you don't let that paint your views on the US legislative bodies. As for different laws about ethnicities (probably the source for calls of apartheid): it's very limited, the main thing is that diaspora Jews can get citizenship automatically. This law is to help Jews anywhere escape from antisemitism. If you're an Israeli citizen however (muslim, jewish, christian or whatever), you have equal rights under the law. It's easy to parrot things like apartheid, but it's more like 0.001% apartheid in the most technical sense, and not what people mean it when they say this word. As for the comparison to western democracies: I think Israel is doing very well, even compared to some of the world's oldest democracies (France/Swiss multiple Muslim related bans, US during the trump administration, etc.), but the people drawing this comparison usually advocate for replacing it with Hammas which is a proper terrorist organization that advocates for killing all non Muslims, killing lgbt, etc. It's a classic Utopia fallacy gone to the extreme.
ethbr1 3y ago
The culpability of association in a thorny question. As you say, millions of Israelis (and the Jewish diaspora) don't support these people. ... but, parts of the Israeli government do. So how should responsibility/blame be apportioned in a democracy with a vocal opposition minority? I don't know. But it'd be a useful answer for every other country with voting in the world too (US, UK, Russia, etc).
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  I'll point out the Jews outside of Israel have as much say as you do. And really your government doesn't do anything material to stop the settlers from committing genocide either. Oh they complain and strongly condemn but who cares. You're going down a dark road when you start trying to hold individuals personally accountable for what their government does.
  - livinginfear 3y ago
    Jews outside Israel have more say than anyone. If it wasn't for America's seemingly unconditional support, Israel wouldn't be able to pursue actions like this. For some insane reason, America is ostensibly willing to support Israel's crimes all the way to the brink of Armageddon. The stakes are that Lebanon and Iran join in the conflict, which has given America cause for serious concern, but Israel seems more determined than ever. The root of the problem lies, as it often does, with America.
    - Gibbon1 3y ago
      So your down the dark road then. Going to blame a non-self selecting group of people for something. The reality is the US plays the heavy while all the other countries get to have their cake and eat it too. They can vote endlessly against Israel knowing the US will be the single no vote. Which suits them just fine. There is no brink of Armageddon because no one that is anyone cares about the Palestinians in Gaza and despite their protects they are perfectly happy with Israel exterminating Hamas. Because if you're a political leader you instinctively understand Hamas is bad news. Also you're ignoring that while unlike you, Jews in the US don't support genocide against Jews in Israel. They are more critical and willing to apply pressure than say Evangelical Christians, your politicians and your business leaders. So you're mostly blaming the wrong people because it conveniently avoids pointing a finger back at you.
defrost 3y ago
FWiW I'm not Jewish although we've got a nice Jewish kid who's now part of the extended family having left Israel some years back largely because of the extremists there. I deplore the actions of Hamas, I deplore the response of the IDF and those in power, it's a horrific shit sandwich with a large number of civilian innocents all around. I do hope this cools down as quickly as possible for the sake of the majority on both sides.
dakial1 3y ago
I've been to Israel and know what you are saying. Most people I met in Tel-aviv are secular jews (and arabs) and really have a liberal mindset. Such a great vibe as well. The problem of moderates (which I am part of in my country) is that they don't like to speak up or enter discussions with the extremist or crazies. So those people speak unopposed while we stand on the sides just shaking our heads, and little by little (much faster now with internet) they attract followers. If you like history you'll find these kind of social setup in many places, but most notoriously (Godwin's law, I know) in early 1930s Germany, where Hitler and the Nazi party were seen as extremist, clownish, etc... until suddenly they were in power and it was too late for people to fight them. Moderates unite?

by bradrn 3y ago

jampekka 3y ago

Quite a chunk of Israel's population seem to be extemists, as these extremists are literally in the government. Also majority of Israeli voters don't seem to mind empowering these extremists to further their own interests (this is of course not specific to Israel, although endorsing and actually enacting genocide level extremists are rather rare). Look at the previous protests where palestinian protestors were vilified from all sides.

tasn 3y ago
They are not literally the government, they are a small part of the government (still troubling!). This was mainly because Ben Gvir promised security and being "tough on terror" and people bought into his propaganda and voted for him. I doubt this will be repeated in the next elections. There have been massive (unprecedented in Israeli history) demonstrations in Israel for the last 10 months against this terrible government that formed and their attempts at destroying the country.
- jampekka 3y ago
  I said in the goverment. Typically having a minister is the definition of being in the government. That they are not a larger part is of course a good thing. The protests were not about the genocide and apartheid. They were mostly about the interal power struggle, which is all well and good, but not protesting against genocide and apartheid per se.
  - tasn 3y ago
    Apologies, I missed the "in", but my comment still applies to the sentence right after and the overall sentiment. The protests were against the government as a whole and many of their actions including their messianic ambitions which include settlements (was a main point of discussion, though sometimes overshadowed by their attempt to weaken the legal institutions). I really don't want to get into politics on HN, but there is no genocide nor apartheid, this is just Hammas propaganda. Israel has the means to kill Palestinians and it doesn't. There are Muslims and Arabs in the Israeli legislative body, including ones that say that Israel shouldn't exist. How is this apartheid? Anyhow, even with the above, there were in fact a lot of pro Palestinian and anti settlement demonstrations during these demonstrations. How do I know? I've been to these demonstrations and saw the signs and Palestinian flags.
    - jampekka 3y ago
      Amnesty, HRW and UN, among others, characterize the situation as apartheid. Are these part of the Hamas propaganda machinery too? Politicians in Israeli gov have called for ethnic clensings. Legal privileges based on ethnicity are quite rare, at least for "western democracies". There were indeed some Palestinian flags in the protests, but they weren't exactly warmly welcomed. I'm of course relying on what I read. https://archive.is/pgh1S https://archive.is/pgh1S
      - tasn 3y ago
        Palestinian flags: the article you showed was from the first demonstration (or one of the first). There were many more in future ones and no clashes. FWIW I personally think raising the flag of an enemy state is distasteful, but Israel is a democracy. The UN still hasn't condemned the October 7th attack nor Hammas's use of civilians as human shields. Not sure about the rest. So I wouldn't call them an unbiased authority. Politicians in Israel have called for ethnic cleansing, fringe crazy politicians. Marjorie Taylor green blamed California wildfires on Jewish space lasers. I hope you don't let that paint your views on the US legislative bodies. As for different laws about ethnicities (probably the source for calls of apartheid): it's very limited, the main thing is that diaspora Jews can get citizenship automatically. This law is to help Jews anywhere escape from antisemitism. If you're an Israeli citizen however (muslim, jewish, christian or whatever), you have equal rights under the law. It's easy to parrot things like apartheid, but it's more like 0.001% apartheid in the most technical sense, and not what people mean it when they say this word. As for the comparison to western democracies: I think Israel is doing very well, even compared to some of the world's oldest democracies (France/Swiss multiple Muslim related bans, US during the trump administration, etc.), but the people drawing this comparison usually advocate for replacing it with Hammas which is a proper terrorist organization that advocates for killing all non Muslims, killing lgbt, etc. It's a classic Utopia fallacy gone to the extreme.

ethbr1 3y ago

The culpability of association in a thorny question. As you say, millions of Israelis (and the Jewish diaspora) don't support these people. ... but, parts of the Israeli government do. So how should responsibility/blame be apportioned in a democracy with a vocal opposition minority? I don't know. But it'd be a useful answer for every other country with voting in the world too (US, UK, Russia, etc).

Gibbon1 3y ago
I'll point out the Jews outside of Israel have as much say as you do. And really your government doesn't do anything material to stop the settlers from committing genocide either. Oh they complain and strongly condemn but who cares. You're going down a dark road when you start trying to hold individuals personally accountable for what their government does.
- livinginfear 3y ago
  Jews outside Israel have more say than anyone. If it wasn't for America's seemingly unconditional support, Israel wouldn't be able to pursue actions like this. For some insane reason, America is ostensibly willing to support Israel's crimes all the way to the brink of Armageddon. The stakes are that Lebanon and Iran join in the conflict, which has given America cause for serious concern, but Israel seems more determined than ever. The root of the problem lies, as it often does, with America.
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    So your down the dark road then. Going to blame a non-self selecting group of people for something. The reality is the US plays the heavy while all the other countries get to have their cake and eat it too. They can vote endlessly against Israel knowing the US will be the single no vote. Which suits them just fine. There is no brink of Armageddon because no one that is anyone cares about the Palestinians in Gaza and despite their protects they are perfectly happy with Israel exterminating Hamas. Because if you're a political leader you instinctively understand Hamas is bad news. Also you're ignoring that while unlike you, Jews in the US don't support genocide against Jews in Israel. They are more critical and willing to apply pressure than say Evangelical Christians, your politicians and your business leaders. So you're mostly blaming the wrong people because it conveniently avoids pointing a finger back at you.

defrost 3y ago

FWiW I'm not Jewish although we've got a nice Jewish kid who's now part of the extended family having left Israel some years back largely because of the extremists there. I deplore the actions of Hamas, I deplore the response of the IDF and those in power, it's a horrific shit sandwich with a large number of civilian innocents all around. I do hope this cools down as quickly as possible for the sake of the majority on both sides.

dakial1 3y ago

I've been to Israel and know what you are saying. Most people I met in Tel-aviv are secular jews (and arabs) and really have a liberal mindset. Such a great vibe as well. The problem of moderates (which I am part of in my country) is that they don't like to speak up or enter discussions with the extremist or crazies. So those people speak unopposed while we stand on the sides just shaking our heads, and little by little (much faster now with internet) they attract followers. If you like history you'll find these kind of social setup in many places, but most notoriously (Godwin's law, I know) in early 1930s Germany, where Hitler and the Nazi party were seen as extremist, clownish, etc... until suddenly they were in power and it was too late for people to fight them. Moderates unite?