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They consider themselves freedom fighters, because the notion of freedom is totally different for them. Freedom doesn't include being gay, a woman with actual

They consider themselves freedom fighters, because the notion of freedom is totally different for them. Freedom doesn't include being gay, a woman with actual rights, a minority that's not a muslim and so on. Moreover, their historical narrative is twisted to fit their objective - the creation of a wold-wide califate. So yes, when freedom is based and defined by this narrative, you could call them freedom fighters.

hnbad 3y ago
Sure, this describes the ideological core of Islamist groups like Al Qaeda. But this also ignores the power dynamics they exist and flourish in. The problem with "freedom fighters" is that they can be both: they can be fighting for freedom while also fighting for the right to subjugate others. The latter is often accepted if the desire for the former is strong enough. Dropping bombs on people lowers the threshold for this radicalization substantially. And if you want to be particularly uncharitable you could argue that as long as the US is not actively pivoting to isolationism (and especially so during the "world police" era until the late '00s) the US's objective was to maintain a world order with itself at the top of the hierarchy. "Liberating" other countries was historically more about making their economies accessible to US interests (and pre-collapse also shutting out the Soviet Union). I'd take US corporate privatization over the caliphate any day but that doesn't mean the former represents freedom in a way I agree with, just that it is a closer match or more compatible.
- Protostome 3y ago
  I completely agree, however, there's one thing in the core of their ideology that's different than the typical US/western european capitalism - their moral compass is absolute, derived from the Quran. It means basically, that there's very little wiggle room, you can't really negotiate with someone who believes he/she acts on orders from a divine entity. That's why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict remains unsolved for so many years ...
  - hnbad 3y ago
    I think it's odd to suggest that the Israel-Palestine conflict is perpetuated by Islamism when Israel's own existence hinges on a moral absolute. There is a small but influential undercurrent among Israeli Zionists who believe in the creation of Greater Israel, ethnically cleansing not only all of the current borders of Israel (including Gaza and the West Bank) but also historical Transjordan and territories all the way to the Nile (i.e. all of Jordan as well as parts of Syria, Saudia Arabia and Egypt): https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions... Eliminationist rhetoric has repeatedly made its way into statements by government politicians and even programming by the Israeli national broadcaster (Kan) as in the recently broadcasted and immediately de-archived "friendship song" video: https://www.msn.com/en-my/news/national/music-video-of-israeli-children-singing-we-will-annihilate-everyone-in-gaza-shocks-world/ar-AA1kd0s5 https://www.msn.com/en-my/news/national/music-video-of-israe... The early Zionist project in Palestine was explicitly described as colonialist by key members and the expulsion of the non-Jewish Palestinian population as an explicit aspect of it. The support of Western governments including the UK pre-1945 was based more on antisemitism than genuine goodwill, ranging from the idea that having "all the Jews in one place" made them easier to handle (or eliminate - which was why the Nazi government tolerated Zionist transfers of German Jews to Palestine until WW2 shut down all emigration) to the British idea during WW2 that "giving them what they want" would give you an "in" with "the international bankers" (basically the reverse side of the Jewish conspiracy theories): https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-10-26/ty-article/the-balfour-declarations-racism-and-why-it-still-matters/0000017f-dba4-db22-a17f-ffb5fdd10000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-10-26/ty-article/the-ba... It's also impossible to mention the Israel-Palestine conflict itself without mentioning how Israel effectively helped bolster (Islamist) Hamas in order to combat the (secular, socialist-leaning) Fatah: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30... ... or how current PM Netanyahu supported the calls for the murder of his more moderate predecessor Rabin that preceded his assassination: https://www.timesofisrael.com/labor-chief-michaeli-rabin-was-assassinated-with-netanyahus-cooperation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/labor-chief-michaeli-rabin-was... Heck, if you go back to the time Hamas was actually elected in Gaza (and many Gazans alive today weren't alive at the time, let alone old enough to participate in the election), their messaging was a lot more ideologically (and religously) moderate and closer to that of Fatah, even if they already were Islamists and eliminationist antisemites internally. Note that Palestinians in Gaza haven't had another election since and public opinion among Gazans seems to be very much divided. In effect, the Zionists through the creation of Israel and the domestic and military conflicts that sprang from it created a Palestinian diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return) which is being mistreated in the countries it has sought refuge in. At the same time, Israel's existence in explicit opposition to its neighbors' cultures and ethnicities while in close alliance with Western powers and the US in particular is seen as a geopolitical threat by its neighbors and especially those countries that are aligned opposite to the US - this more than any religious motivations seems the main motivation behind Iran's support of Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Islamism definitely plays a part in this and Islamists do lend themselves more towards carrying out the terrorist attacks and missile strikes against Israel as none of its neighbors could risk an all-out war even without direct involvement of the US military. But as always in geopolitics it runs much deeper than one group's religious dogma. And I haven't even mentioned how certain Evangelical Christians shaped US politics on Israel because the reestablishment of Israel as a "Jewish state" (and the extermination of those same Jews) is an integral part of their mythology of the "end times" (and salvation). There are very unhealthy beliefs about Israel/Palestine present in all three Abrahamic religions, to say the least.

hnbad 3y ago

Sure, this describes the ideological core of Islamist groups like Al Qaeda. But this also ignores the power dynamics they exist and flourish in. The problem with "freedom fighters" is that they can be both: they can be fighting for freedom while also fighting for the right to subjugate others. The latter is often accepted if the desire for the former is strong enough. Dropping bombs on people lowers the threshold for this radicalization substantially. And if you want to be particularly uncharitable you could argue that as long as the US is not actively pivoting to isolationism (and especially so during the "world police" era until the late '00s) the US's objective was to maintain a world order with itself at the top of the hierarchy. "Liberating" other countries was historically more about making their economies accessible to US interests (and pre-collapse also shutting out the Soviet Union). I'd take US corporate privatization over the caliphate any day but that doesn't mean the former represents freedom in a way I agree with, just that it is a closer match or more compatible.

Protostome 3y ago
I completely agree, however, there's one thing in the core of their ideology that's different than the typical US/western european capitalism - their moral compass is absolute, derived from the Quran. It means basically, that there's very little wiggle room, you can't really negotiate with someone who believes he/she acts on orders from a divine entity. That's why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict remains unsolved for so many years ...
- hnbad 3y ago
  I think it's odd to suggest that the Israel-Palestine conflict is perpetuated by Islamism when Israel's own existence hinges on a moral absolute. There is a small but influential undercurrent among Israeli Zionists who believe in the creation of Greater Israel, ethnically cleansing not only all of the current borders of Israel (including Gaza and the West Bank) but also historical Transjordan and territories all the way to the Nile (i.e. all of Jordan as well as parts of Syria, Saudia Arabia and Egypt): https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions... Eliminationist rhetoric has repeatedly made its way into statements by government politicians and even programming by the Israeli national broadcaster (Kan) as in the recently broadcasted and immediately de-archived "friendship song" video: https://www.msn.com/en-my/news/national/music-video-of-israeli-children-singing-we-will-annihilate-everyone-in-gaza-shocks-world/ar-AA1kd0s5 https://www.msn.com/en-my/news/national/music-video-of-israe... The early Zionist project in Palestine was explicitly described as colonialist by key members and the expulsion of the non-Jewish Palestinian population as an explicit aspect of it. The support of Western governments including the UK pre-1945 was based more on antisemitism than genuine goodwill, ranging from the idea that having "all the Jews in one place" made them easier to handle (or eliminate - which was why the Nazi government tolerated Zionist transfers of German Jews to Palestine until WW2 shut down all emigration) to the British idea during WW2 that "giving them what they want" would give you an "in" with "the international bankers" (basically the reverse side of the Jewish conspiracy theories): https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-10-26/ty-article/the-balfour-declarations-racism-and-why-it-still-matters/0000017f-dba4-db22-a17f-ffb5fdd10000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-10-26/ty-article/the-ba... It's also impossible to mention the Israel-Palestine conflict itself without mentioning how Israel effectively helped bolster (Islamist) Hamas in order to combat the (secular, socialist-leaning) Fatah: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30... ... or how current PM Netanyahu supported the calls for the murder of his more moderate predecessor Rabin that preceded his assassination: https://www.timesofisrael.com/labor-chief-michaeli-rabin-was-assassinated-with-netanyahus-cooperation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/labor-chief-michaeli-rabin-was... Heck, if you go back to the time Hamas was actually elected in Gaza (and many Gazans alive today weren't alive at the time, let alone old enough to participate in the election), their messaging was a lot more ideologically (and religously) moderate and closer to that of Fatah, even if they already were Islamists and eliminationist antisemites internally. Note that Palestinians in Gaza haven't had another election since and public opinion among Gazans seems to be very much divided. In effect, the Zionists through the creation of Israel and the domestic and military conflicts that sprang from it created a Palestinian diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return) which is being mistreated in the countries it has sought refuge in. At the same time, Israel's existence in explicit opposition to its neighbors' cultures and ethnicities while in close alliance with Western powers and the US in particular is seen as a geopolitical threat by its neighbors and especially those countries that are aligned opposite to the US - this more than any religious motivations seems the main motivation behind Iran's support of Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Islamism definitely plays a part in this and Islamists do lend themselves more towards carrying out the terrorist attacks and missile strikes against Israel as none of its neighbors could risk an all-out war even without direct involvement of the US military. But as always in geopolitics it runs much deeper than one group's religious dogma. And I haven't even mentioned how certain Evangelical Christians shaped US politics on Israel because the reestablishment of Israel as a "Jewish state" (and the extermination of those same Jews) is an integral part of their mythology of the "end times" (and salvation). There are very unhealthy beliefs about Israel/Palestine present in all three Abrahamic religions, to say the least.