4 ms·

> "I love my basement collection of archaic computer hardware" Nothing wrong with retro-computing enthusiasts, per se. From the Linux kernel perspective it's

by jabl 3y ago

> "I love my basement collection of archaic computer hardware" Nothing wrong with retro-computing enthusiasts, per se. From the Linux kernel perspective it's about the architecture having maintainers and not causing pain for the rest of the kernel. The Linux m68k port is probably a good example of this, hard to see it having any kind of commercial value these days, and the maintainers are hobbyists. But with the Itanium port not having anybody willing to maintain it, bye bye. Probably also helps that qemu has m68k support, so even if you love the idea of running Linux on your old Amiga, you can actually do the development on a mainstream platform.

repelsteeltje 3y ago
Your argument comes down to: put your money where your mouth is. I think that makes sense, both for hobbyists and commercial value. A census is one, but unless someone's willing to pick up the gauntlet...
jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, but most retro computing enthusiasts are more than happy to run retro software as well, because that's where the fun is. Running a 2023 OS on 1993 hardware is going to be a frustrating experience anyway even if you get it to work because of the relative change in performance since then. Hardware is usually best matched with software from roughly the same era if you want anything close to acceptable performance. My oldest still-in-use hardware is now 15 years old and I'm amazed it does as well as it does but I'm also quite aware of the limitations and that stuff was absolutely top-of-the-line when it was bought. Parts are unobtanium and if it goes (which could happen every time it power cycles) we'll probably hold a small service but not cry too much.
creshal 3y ago
> The Linux m68k port is probably a good example of this, hard to see it having any kind of commercial value these days There's some 500 Eurofighters around with two dozen m68k each for their avionics (though not running Linux – and they're slooowly getting updated to less obsolete architectures), and I suspect they're not the only current use case. Industrial life cycles can be very, very long.
- einr 3y ago
  68k support in Linux and GCC includes NXP Coldfire, a family of microcontrollers that are the last living descendents of the 68k. There are products being made right now that run on Coldfire so it is quite relevant to a lot of people to keep support going. NXP also still makes the original 68000, which undoubtedly is still in demand for industrial and embedded uses. (Although a plain vanilla 68000 is not going to be running Linux due to the lack of an MMU) https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/legacy-mpu-mcus/32-bit-coldfire-mcus-mpus:PC68KCF https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers...
mrweasel 3y ago
> Probably also helps that qemu has m68k support, If the point is, as you suggest that you can do the development on modern hardware, and the later move the code from the emulator to actual hardware, then I think it's an overall win. If all that happens is that code is developed using the emulator and then only ever run in the same emulator, then I question the value of the exercise. It's the same we see with old esoteric filesystems, if it's never checked against anything but itself, is it then really providing value. Whether or not the developers are hobbyist should matter, having more hardware platforms is good for detecting bugs.
- chasil 3y ago
  > If all that happens is that code is developed using the emulator and then only ever run in the same emulator, then I question the value of the exercise. ...unless you are developing for the JRE or CLR. Abstract emulation has its uses.
ghaff 3y ago
>Nothing wrong with retro-computing enthusiasts, per se. Certainly not. But after I left a long ago computer systems company, the occasional request would make its way to me to hook up someone to someone who could help them get BSD or whatever running on some old hardware they had gotten their hands on. I'm glad you have your hobby but you shouldn't, in general, have expectations that engineers with day jobs are going to chase down a bunch of low level hardware and software information (if it even still exists) for your random hardware.

by jabl 3y ago

repelsteeltje 3y ago

Your argument comes down to: put your money where your mouth is. I think that makes sense, both for hobbyists and commercial value. A census is one, but unless someone's willing to pick up the gauntlet...

jacquesm 3y ago

Yes, but most retro computing enthusiasts are more than happy to run retro software as well, because that's where the fun is. Running a 2023 OS on 1993 hardware is going to be a frustrating experience anyway even if you get it to work because of the relative change in performance since then. Hardware is usually best matched with software from roughly the same era if you want anything close to acceptable performance. My oldest still-in-use hardware is now 15 years old and I'm amazed it does as well as it does but I'm also quite aware of the limitations and that stuff was absolutely top-of-the-line when it was bought. Parts are unobtanium and if it goes (which could happen every time it power cycles) we'll probably hold a small service but not cry too much.

creshal 3y ago

> The Linux m68k port is probably a good example of this, hard to see it having any kind of commercial value these days There's some 500 Eurofighters around with two dozen m68k each for their avionics (though not running Linux – and they're slooowly getting updated to less obsolete architectures), and I suspect they're not the only current use case. Industrial life cycles can be very, very long.

einr 3y ago
68k support in Linux and GCC includes NXP Coldfire, a family of microcontrollers that are the last living descendents of the 68k. There are products being made right now that run on Coldfire so it is quite relevant to a lot of people to keep support going. NXP also still makes the original 68000, which undoubtedly is still in demand for industrial and embedded uses. (Although a plain vanilla 68000 is not going to be running Linux due to the lack of an MMU) https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/legacy-mpu-mcus/32-bit-coldfire-mcus-mpus:PC68KCF https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers...

mrweasel 3y ago

> Probably also helps that qemu has m68k support, If the point is, as you suggest that you can do the development on modern hardware, and the later move the code from the emulator to actual hardware, then I think it's an overall win. If all that happens is that code is developed using the emulator and then only ever run in the same emulator, then I question the value of the exercise. It's the same we see with old esoteric filesystems, if it's never checked against anything but itself, is it then really providing value. Whether or not the developers are hobbyist should matter, having more hardware platforms is good for detecting bugs.

chasil 3y ago
> If all that happens is that code is developed using the emulator and then only ever run in the same emulator, then I question the value of the exercise. ...unless you are developing for the JRE or CLR. Abstract emulation has its uses.

ghaff 3y ago

>Nothing wrong with retro-computing enthusiasts, per se. Certainly not. But after I left a long ago computer systems company, the occasional request would make its way to me to hook up someone to someone who could help them get BSD or whatever running on some old hardware they had gotten their hands on. I'm glad you have your hobby but you shouldn't, in general, have expectations that engineers with day jobs are going to chase down a bunch of low level hardware and software information (if it even still exists) for your random hardware.