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If you’re just learning about this from outside the United States, some important context is that the domestic narrative about 9/11 was that “They hate us for o

If you’re just learning about this from outside the United States, some important context is that the domestic narrative about 9/11 was that “They hate us for our freedoms”. Substantive discussion about Bin Laden’s motivations and his stated reasons for the attack were generally absent, and even the top line of the reasons themselves was not repeated on cable news. It appears the majority of these young people are just discovering for the first time that there was some stated reason at all, that terrorism is political (and usually not driven by like a supra political cosmological hate). I think it’s a useful and clarifying thing for people to learn, and the vast majority learning about this now don’t support 9/11, obviously.

throw101010 3y ago
> there was some stated reason at all, that terrorism is political (and usually not driven by like a supra political cosmological hate). Bin Laden clearly displays homophobia and antisemitism as main justifications for his terrorism in this letter. He clearly hated the freedoms allowed to individuals in liberal democracies and claimed they were the causes of their alleged degeneracy. It was rooted in ignorance and religious fundamentalism. So I don't really know what other justifications you have found in this letter that would make you think Bin Laden had "reasons" to do what he did beyond this, he wasn't fighting for his people first, he was a religious fundamentalist, if that's not "supra political cosmological hate", what is it? Also, if people were learning this from this viral campaign it would be good... unfortunately it seems that they are more focused on the antisemitism part in it as it relates to the current Israelo-palestinian conflict. That is why it became viral right now, context matters, and it's really not looking like a "learning" opportunity if you check the comment sections where this is shared.
- dTal 3y ago
  Not to be rude, but did you read it? He's hardly ambiguous: >As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple: (1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us Followed by an extensive bulleted list of material grievances, chief amongst them the US support of Israel specifically in relation to Palestine. It couldn't be clearer: he objects to US actions in the Middle East. There were lots of liberal western countries that didn't get 9/11ed, so "he hated our freedoms" lacks explanatory power if nothing else.
  - PM_me_your_math 3y ago
    [dead]
  - throw101010 3y ago
    > Not to be rude, but did you read it? Have you? > You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. > [...] the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense > We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest" And there's more of this all over this letter. Just because he mentioned a tit-for-tat rationalization first and addresses American's actions (does it really surprises you in a "Letter to America"?), it doesn't remove the ideology behind it. It's also very ironic to see this letter brought up by leftist/progressive people as a justification for "resisting" the way Hamas does (because that is what is happening on TikTok, maybe you haven't watched the videos and read the comments). Almost none of the values they claim to care about would be left if Bin Laden or the Hamas had it their way. > There were lots of liberal western countries that didn't get 9/11ed, so "he hated our freedoms" lacks explanatory power if nothing else. Are you trying to rewrite history that's not even 25 years old? London, Madrid, Paris (to mention only the largest) all had sizable attacks from Al-Qaeda or their sprouts after 9/11, they don't count unless it caused above 1000 deaths or something? With their limited means (relative to the undertaking), they have managed to struck the biggest target they could on 9/11 and cause the most death and destruction in any Western democracy in a terrorist act.
boppo1 3y ago
I agree with your entire post without reservation. It makes me wonder though: > that terrorism is political (and usually not driven by like a supra political cosmological hate). What are the motivations of US school/mass shooters? So far, the answer has been 'mental health issues', but given the relatively sudden rise in the attacks (while weapons have been available for decades), 'mental health issues' seems 'hate our freedoms'-tier.
- CTDOCodebases 3y ago
  I would disagree. The people who are organising the terrorist activities have political goals. The people carrying out the terrorist activities have emotional goals. If I had to guess school shooting have increased due to: a. increased information flows due to social media. i.e. people are inspired by the actions of others. Social media is saturated with news. b. increased mental health issues caused by social isolation in the modern world. It sounds odd but some people when growing up mistake attention for love. So any solicitation of attention can be thought of as a underlying desire to be loved.

throw101010 3y ago

> there was some stated reason at all, that terrorism is political (and usually not driven by like a supra political cosmological hate). Bin Laden clearly displays homophobia and antisemitism as main justifications for his terrorism in this letter. He clearly hated the freedoms allowed to individuals in liberal democracies and claimed they were the causes of their alleged degeneracy. It was rooted in ignorance and religious fundamentalism. So I don't really know what other justifications you have found in this letter that would make you think Bin Laden had "reasons" to do what he did beyond this, he wasn't fighting for his people first, he was a religious fundamentalist, if that's not "supra political cosmological hate", what is it? Also, if people were learning this from this viral campaign it would be good... unfortunately it seems that they are more focused on the antisemitism part in it as it relates to the current Israelo-palestinian conflict. That is why it became viral right now, context matters, and it's really not looking like a "learning" opportunity if you check the comment sections where this is shared.

dTal 3y ago
Not to be rude, but did you read it? He's hardly ambiguous: >As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple: (1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us Followed by an extensive bulleted list of material grievances, chief amongst them the US support of Israel specifically in relation to Palestine. It couldn't be clearer: he objects to US actions in the Middle East. There were lots of liberal western countries that didn't get 9/11ed, so "he hated our freedoms" lacks explanatory power if nothing else.
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago
  [dead]
- throw101010 3y ago
  > Not to be rude, but did you read it? Have you? > You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. > [...] the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense > We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest" And there's more of this all over this letter. Just because he mentioned a tit-for-tat rationalization first and addresses American's actions (does it really surprises you in a "Letter to America"?), it doesn't remove the ideology behind it. It's also very ironic to see this letter brought up by leftist/progressive people as a justification for "resisting" the way Hamas does (because that is what is happening on TikTok, maybe you haven't watched the videos and read the comments). Almost none of the values they claim to care about would be left if Bin Laden or the Hamas had it their way. > There were lots of liberal western countries that didn't get 9/11ed, so "he hated our freedoms" lacks explanatory power if nothing else. Are you trying to rewrite history that's not even 25 years old? London, Madrid, Paris (to mention only the largest) all had sizable attacks from Al-Qaeda or their sprouts after 9/11, they don't count unless it caused above 1000 deaths or something? With their limited means (relative to the undertaking), they have managed to struck the biggest target they could on 9/11 and cause the most death and destruction in any Western democracy in a terrorist act.

boppo1 3y ago

I agree with your entire post without reservation. It makes me wonder though: > that terrorism is political (and usually not driven by like a supra political cosmological hate). What are the motivations of US school/mass shooters? So far, the answer has been 'mental health issues', but given the relatively sudden rise in the attacks (while weapons have been available for decades), 'mental health issues' seems 'hate our freedoms'-tier.

CTDOCodebases 3y ago
I would disagree. The people who are organising the terrorist activities have political goals. The people carrying out the terrorist activities have emotional goals. If I had to guess school shooting have increased due to: a. increased information flows due to social media. i.e. people are inspired by the actions of others. Social media is saturated with news. b. increased mental health issues caused by social isolation in the modern world. It sounds odd but some people when growing up mistake attention for love. So any solicitation of attention can be thought of as a underlying desire to be loved.