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There are other species that are effectively immortal. And those are natural things: with artificial treatments, it's certain that biological immortality could

There are other species that are effectively immortal. And those are natural things: with artificial treatments, it's certain that biological immortality could be achieved. Stars can be immortal too, if you make changes in them to replace their fuel, for instance. Why do detractors always think that biological immortality shouldn't require some kind of external treatments occasionally, and then argue from that assumption? Most people don't expect their car to work forever without new fuel, maintenance, repairs, etc.

somenameforme 3y ago
Because the evidence completely rejects biological immortality for anything vaguely resembling 'advanced' life (in so much as a lobster is 'advanced'). As the snippet above mentions, even with interventions lobsters would eventually die. Older lobsters not only expend more energy moulting, but eventually cease the process altogether resulting in their inevitable death. So you're left with a mish-mash primarily of weird little microscopic asexually reproducing creatures, that have essentially nothing in common with advanced lifeforms. And as more evidence on these species is collected, it invariably trends towards the rejection of biological immortality rather than the confirmation of such. For instance the hydra once thought ageless, has been shown to decrease asexual reproduction as it ages - clearly demonstrating an active and detrimental aging process. The entire field is even more dysfunctional with the obsession on telomere length, even though we know that telomere length is correlated with aging, and not causal. Lobsters are an example, as they actively regenerate their telomeres, yet age and die. As are mice - where telomere lengths remain roughly the same as they age, and die. Nobody wants to die, and so it creates a strong motivation for us to set aside our logic and rationale, and imagine we might live forever. I simply refuse to do that. I believe it will lead to a happier and healthier life for myself than for a man like Ray Kurzweil who will certainly die in the coming years, after spending a lifetime trying to convince himself he could live forever, using logic he could trivially refute in 5 minutes if he actually wanted to.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >and imagine we might live forever. The idea that it's physically impossible is simply ridiculous, and a religious belief. We're able to effectively be immortal now, simply because of reproduction: cell lines continue forever, just not in the same organism. Can we achieve this anytime soon? Perhaps not. But to say it's impossible is silly, it's like saying you can't transmute elements (like lead to gold), when it's been done countless times in stars. Of course, there's a way, but it might involve very advanced tech like nanomachines and genetic engineering.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Are you sure you're not projecting there? The idea we might live forever turns technological development into a path that might one day lead to 'salvation.' And, most tellingly, that day of salvation invariably tends to lie just within one's life expectancy, again as with Ray Kurzweil - though there are endless other examples. By appealing to advanced tech you can convince yourself anything is possible, when that's obviously not the case. I think this was an issue, even in the distant past. The Fountain of Youth would have been being 'thought up' about the time mankind was discovering all sorts of strange wonders in the world, like what happens if one chews on the bark of the willow tree. You will feel a bit odd, but all of your pain and discomfort will just magically fade. Of course that is where Aspirin comes from. And similarly for all other sorts of other seemingly magical discoveries. In this context it's easy to convince oneself that even the waters of immortality are just one more discovery away, but really there's no reason to really think it was, or is.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      The "waters of immortality" are certainly more than just one discovery away; they won't be easy or simple at all, because they require re-engineering human biology. However, the idea that aging is somehow necessary is purely a religious belief. There's absolutely no physics-based reason why it has to be this way.

somenameforme 3y ago

Because the evidence completely rejects biological immortality for anything vaguely resembling 'advanced' life (in so much as a lobster is 'advanced'). As the snippet above mentions, even with interventions lobsters would eventually die. Older lobsters not only expend more energy moulting, but eventually cease the process altogether resulting in their inevitable death. So you're left with a mish-mash primarily of weird little microscopic asexually reproducing creatures, that have essentially nothing in common with advanced lifeforms. And as more evidence on these species is collected, it invariably trends towards the rejection of biological immortality rather than the confirmation of such. For instance the hydra once thought ageless, has been shown to decrease asexual reproduction as it ages - clearly demonstrating an active and detrimental aging process. The entire field is even more dysfunctional with the obsession on telomere length, even though we know that telomere length is correlated with aging, and not causal. Lobsters are an example, as they actively regenerate their telomeres, yet age and die. As are mice - where telomere lengths remain roughly the same as they age, and die. Nobody wants to die, and so it creates a strong motivation for us to set aside our logic and rationale, and imagine we might live forever. I simply refuse to do that. I believe it will lead to a happier and healthier life for myself than for a man like Ray Kurzweil who will certainly die in the coming years, after spending a lifetime trying to convince himself he could live forever, using logic he could trivially refute in 5 minutes if he actually wanted to.

shiroiuma 3y ago
>and imagine we might live forever. The idea that it's physically impossible is simply ridiculous, and a religious belief. We're able to effectively be immortal now, simply because of reproduction: cell lines continue forever, just not in the same organism. Can we achieve this anytime soon? Perhaps not. But to say it's impossible is silly, it's like saying you can't transmute elements (like lead to gold), when it's been done countless times in stars. Of course, there's a way, but it might involve very advanced tech like nanomachines and genetic engineering.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Are you sure you're not projecting there? The idea we might live forever turns technological development into a path that might one day lead to 'salvation.' And, most tellingly, that day of salvation invariably tends to lie just within one's life expectancy, again as with Ray Kurzweil - though there are endless other examples. By appealing to advanced tech you can convince yourself anything is possible, when that's obviously not the case. I think this was an issue, even in the distant past. The Fountain of Youth would have been being 'thought up' about the time mankind was discovering all sorts of strange wonders in the world, like what happens if one chews on the bark of the willow tree. You will feel a bit odd, but all of your pain and discomfort will just magically fade. Of course that is where Aspirin comes from. And similarly for all other sorts of other seemingly magical discoveries. In this context it's easy to convince oneself that even the waters of immortality are just one more discovery away, but really there's no reason to really think it was, or is.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    The "waters of immortality" are certainly more than just one discovery away; they won't be easy or simple at all, because they require re-engineering human biology. However, the idea that aging is somehow necessary is purely a religious belief. There's absolutely no physics-based reason why it has to be this way.