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I'm fairly certain people working on-site never stopped companies from laying them off in droves when it suited them. So I'm fairly certain Citadel CEO Ken Gri

I'm fairly certain people working on-site never stopped companies from laying them off in droves when it suited them. So I'm fairly certain Citadel CEO Ken Griffin is full of shit.

aurareturn 3y ago
Don't underestimate the face-to-face element of it. People are assholes online. Sometimes even trolls. But in real life, they're often just respectful normal people. Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. Edit: I think I should be clear that the face-to-face element of it does make it that much harder. I remember having to fire someone face-to-face multiple times. Each time, it made me very nervous because I don't know how this person would physically react upon receiving the news. I also built real human connections with them so it's extra difficult. I believe that remote work makes this process far easier on both the manager and the company. In fact, I believe that managers would subconsciously choose to fire the remote worker over the in-person worker if all things are equal. For those who didn't read the article, the main point is in this quote: >If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job.
- someone7x 3y ago
  As a champion of front running trades via payment-for-order-flow in general, and as a key villain in the GameStop saga in particular, surely there’s no shortage of people eager to tell him as much or worse to his face.
  - snapcaster 3y ago
    He's only a "key villain" in the minds of delusional bagholders
- silisili 3y ago
  If my employment is being unexpectedly terminated, it doesn't really matter two sticks to me whether they're polite or not about it. I'll take the perks of remote work every time, even if it means me being humiliated in my firing.
  - happytiger 3y ago
    I mean it’s kind of the point here. If you are getting canned it really isn’t about whether your boss knows you. Also, remote work doesn’t mean you don’t have relationships with people. You can build amazing relationships with remote situations (sometimes much stronger than office relationships) if you… I don’t know… manage your company well?
- verve_rat 3y ago
  For lay-offs the people deciding to fire 1000 people aren't seeing any of those faces.
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    I don't think the article is talking about mass layoffs. Here's the main point: >If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job.
- bosch_mind 3y ago
  I’d happily tell Ken Griffin he’s full of shit to his face.
  - refurb 3y ago
    Let's be honest, no you wouldn't.
    - elktown 3y ago
      Do you think it's nature or nurture that responsible for a Dwight Schrute personality?
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      I think nearly every single person in Chicago would happily tell him to eat shit and tell him they hope he gets hits by a car in Florida so they won't have to keep reading about him trying to use his money to decide how people in the US should live their lives
- xen0 3y ago
  > Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. They might say it in in-person conversations with their colleagues. Yes there's a level of detachment that comes from being online, but the bigger distinction is more 'who' you are talking to.
- jlpom 3y ago
  > People are assholes online. Sometimes even trolls. But in real life, they're often just respectful normal people. I really don’t think this is the case and it really doesn’t match my personal experience. Especially under their true name, people behave as they would talking face to face.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    I wish this was true but it's not my experience. When we switched to WFH during covid, the same people (not all of them of course) who were nice, courteous, and helpful in person, turned to dismissive a-hole towards their peers on-line. You see, it's more damaging for you to be an a-hole in person in the (open) office because then everyone can see and hear you and know who you really are as a person, but in chats you can be as dickish and as dismissive as you like and nobody else, especially your boss will be the wiser thinking still that you're a great guy. This behavior is more difficult to pull off in the office where everyone can see what you're up to and your boss can come up to you saying "hey Anton, can you please stop playing World of Tanks and help Joe solve that issue?" versus WFH where Anton can paly world of tanks undisturbed while complaining he can't help anyone right now because he's super busy. It's not universal behavior of course, and I'm not advocating for RTO or workplace surveillance, but exclusively 'on-line' presence does tend to bring out the worse in some people, especially out of those who are not contempt with their job they chose and will do anything, other than quit, to not do their duties and hold others back.
- e40 3y ago
  Did you see the video of that US Senator challenging a committee witness to a fist fight? Happened in the last week. All in person.
  - PM_me_your_math 3y ago
    [dead]
  - asdajksah2123 3y ago
    And was considered significantly out of the norm. And not surprisingly, was based entirely off comments on Twitter.
  - mc32 3y ago
    Wasn’t that because the other person slandered the other one when this person was not present either online or in comments?
    - LargeTomato 3y ago
      So a Twitter fight? That doesn't excuse anything.
    - ragestorm 3y ago
      Sorta. It was more of a 'fight me' comment versus slander. The issue is that the unprofessional congressman tried to fight a witness _during_ a hearing in progress based off comments from Twitter.
  - wizerdrobe 3y ago
    I’d be inclined to believe much of what goes on in the halls of Congress are more of a theatrical performance.
- bko 3y ago
  I think a lot of those that think firing people is trivial were never in the room when the decisions were made or the conversations were had. It's always a tough decision even in relatively cold industries like finance. Bit of a tangent, but it's like the reddit crowd that's convinced of how the world works without much experience (think the /r/antiwork or /r/fuckcars. It's just easy to be cynical. I heard the argument recently that you should be weary of cynical people, because if they think everyone is shitty they're more likely to accept it and be shitty themselves. If you think the person driving a large car is just an asshole (as opposed to someone with a big family), you're more likely to be an asshole and let the air out of his tires
  - asdajksah2123 3y ago
    > I think a lot of those that think firing people is trivial were never in the room when the decisions were made or the conversations were had. There is so much discourse on HN (and elsewhere) that everyone agrees with and you just read and you're like they clearly have no idea what it is to actually be in the situation they're talking about.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  >If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job. But how does that connect to remote work? Remote or not, your manager knows you personally.
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    Well, would a married couple who sees each other once a year have a stronger connection or someone who sees each other every day? On average.
- whoknew1122 3y ago
  > Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. You severely underestimate people if you don't think some people would curse him out to his face. I worked for him as an employee of a subcontractor. They wanted NDAs not only from the place I worked, but wanted to bind me personally to their NDA. I told someone who directly reports to him something much stronger than they're full of shit. Dude is a toolbag, no matter how much money he has.
up2isomorphism 3y ago
“I just don’t want go back to work, and ignore the fact that there are people need to go to work to make living and are willing to work in The office. “ Honestly I feel all these RTO rants are so unnecessary since if you get a remote job just keep it if you like. Or change a job if you don’t feel like to RTO, that’s the only ACTUAL action you can make impact. Instead of “telling” employees RTO is bad for them.

I'm fairly certain people working on-site never stopped companies from laying them off in droves when it suited them. So I'm fairly certain Citadel CEO Ken Griffin is full of shit.

aurareturn 3y ago

Don't underestimate the face-to-face element of it. People are assholes online. Sometimes even trolls. But in real life, they're often just respectful normal people. Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. Edit: I think I should be clear that the face-to-face element of it does make it that much harder. I remember having to fire someone face-to-face multiple times. Each time, it made me very nervous because I don't know how this person would physically react upon receiving the news. I also built real human connections with them so it's extra difficult. I believe that remote work makes this process far easier on both the manager and the company. In fact, I believe that managers would subconsciously choose to fire the remote worker over the in-person worker if all things are equal. For those who didn't read the article, the main point is in this quote: >If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job.

someone7x 3y ago
As a champion of front running trades via payment-for-order-flow in general, and as a key villain in the GameStop saga in particular, surely there’s no shortage of people eager to tell him as much or worse to his face.
- snapcaster 3y ago
  He's only a "key villain" in the minds of delusional bagholders
silisili 3y ago
If my employment is being unexpectedly terminated, it doesn't really matter two sticks to me whether they're polite or not about it. I'll take the perks of remote work every time, even if it means me being humiliated in my firing.
- happytiger 3y ago
  I mean it’s kind of the point here. If you are getting canned it really isn’t about whether your boss knows you. Also, remote work doesn’t mean you don’t have relationships with people. You can build amazing relationships with remote situations (sometimes much stronger than office relationships) if you… I don’t know… manage your company well?
verve_rat 3y ago
For lay-offs the people deciding to fire 1000 people aren't seeing any of those faces.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  I don't think the article is talking about mass layoffs. Here's the main point: >If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job.
bosch_mind 3y ago
I’d happily tell Ken Griffin he’s full of shit to his face.
- refurb 3y ago
  Let's be honest, no you wouldn't.
  - elktown 3y ago
    Do you think it's nature or nurture that responsible for a Dwight Schrute personality?
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    I think nearly every single person in Chicago would happily tell him to eat shit and tell him they hope he gets hits by a car in Florida so they won't have to keep reading about him trying to use his money to decide how people in the US should live their lives
xen0 3y ago
> Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. They might say it in in-person conversations with their colleagues. Yes there's a level of detachment that comes from being online, but the bigger distinction is more 'who' you are talking to.
jlpom 3y ago
> People are assholes online. Sometimes even trolls. But in real life, they're often just respectful normal people. I really don’t think this is the case and it really doesn’t match my personal experience. Especially under their true name, people behave as they would talking face to face.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  I wish this was true but it's not my experience. When we switched to WFH during covid, the same people (not all of them of course) who were nice, courteous, and helpful in person, turned to dismissive a-hole towards their peers on-line. You see, it's more damaging for you to be an a-hole in person in the (open) office because then everyone can see and hear you and know who you really are as a person, but in chats you can be as dickish and as dismissive as you like and nobody else, especially your boss will be the wiser thinking still that you're a great guy. This behavior is more difficult to pull off in the office where everyone can see what you're up to and your boss can come up to you saying "hey Anton, can you please stop playing World of Tanks and help Joe solve that issue?" versus WFH where Anton can paly world of tanks undisturbed while complaining he can't help anyone right now because he's super busy. It's not universal behavior of course, and I'm not advocating for RTO or workplace surveillance, but exclusively 'on-line' presence does tend to bring out the worse in some people, especially out of those who are not contempt with their job they chose and will do anything, other than quit, to not do their duties and hold others back.
e40 3y ago
Did you see the video of that US Senator challenging a committee witness to a fist fight? Happened in the last week. All in person.
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago
  [dead]
- asdajksah2123 3y ago
  And was considered significantly out of the norm. And not surprisingly, was based entirely off comments on Twitter.
- mc32 3y ago
  Wasn’t that because the other person slandered the other one when this person was not present either online or in comments?
  - LargeTomato 3y ago
    So a Twitter fight? That doesn't excuse anything.
  - ragestorm 3y ago
    Sorta. It was more of a 'fight me' comment versus slander. The issue is that the unprofessional congressman tried to fight a witness _during_ a hearing in progress based off comments from Twitter.
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  I’d be inclined to believe much of what goes on in the halls of Congress are more of a theatrical performance.
bko 3y ago
I think a lot of those that think firing people is trivial were never in the room when the decisions were made or the conversations were had. It's always a tough decision even in relatively cold industries like finance. Bit of a tangent, but it's like the reddit crowd that's convinced of how the world works without much experience (think the /r/antiwork or /r/fuckcars. It's just easy to be cynical. I heard the argument recently that you should be weary of cynical people, because if they think everyone is shitty they're more likely to accept it and be shitty themselves. If you think the person driving a large car is just an asshole (as opposed to someone with a big family), you're more likely to be an asshole and let the air out of his tires
- asdajksah2123 3y ago
  > I think a lot of those that think firing people is trivial were never in the room when the decisions were made or the conversations were had. There is so much discourse on HN (and elsewhere) that everyone agrees with and you just read and you're like they clearly have no idea what it is to actually be in the situation they're talking about.
JohnFen 3y ago
>If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job. But how does that connect to remote work? Remote or not, your manager knows you personally.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  Well, would a married couple who sees each other once a year have a stronger connection or someone who sees each other every day? On average.
whoknew1122 3y ago
> Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. You severely underestimate people if you don't think some people would curse him out to his face. I worked for him as an employee of a subcontractor. They wanted NDAs not only from the place I worked, but wanted to bind me personally to their NDA. I told someone who directly reports to him something much stronger than they're full of shit. Dude is a toolbag, no matter how much money he has.

up2isomorphism 3y ago

“I just don’t want go back to work, and ignore the fact that there are people need to go to work to make living and are willing to work in The office. “ Honestly I feel all these RTO rants are so unnecessary since if you get a remote job just keep it if you like. Or change a job if you don’t feel like to RTO, that’s the only ACTUAL action you can make impact. Instead of “telling” employees RTO is bad for them.