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Citadel CEO Ken Griffin: Remote work makes it easier to fire people

39 points by voisin 3y ago

pipeline_peak 3y ago
Whether it was that time my old boss yelled at me because I put off a scrum training exam until the 15th (due the 30th), or the respect I’ve gotten for having long hair…I find WFH has brought me closer to an objective, professional environment. So I’m willing to take the worse for the better. I don’t give a shit if your 6’3 and give a firm handshake, there’s too much bloat in the workforce and I don’t think personal relationships are all that important here.
- xwolfi 3y ago
  You misunderstand: work is not about a collection of individual contributions by skilled professionals, it's about convincing someone to give you time and money in exchange for providing the minimum satisfactory output. The client doesn't care how well or hard you work: he wants it asap for as little money as possible, and everything else in the chain between the client and you reacts to this tension. If a manager never sees you, and you produce a difficult to sell output, then he's not gonna suffer reputational damage for your sake defending you and your reasons for being X or Y on the output. If you produce an obvious advantage, then yes, but it's not everyone, and not every year: you will need, at some point, for someone else to do something for you. If not, no big deal anyway: you can just be fired and move on. But it's never gonna be about firm handshakes, it's about trust even in temporary failure.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Agingcoder 3y ago
    I very much agree with this, but it took me a long time to get it. I believe it’s one of the key difficulties for more technical types : understanding that software engineering, once you go past the very local aspects of it ( my dev on my workstation in programming language A ) is first and foremost and human activity. Some may want to ignore this, but like you said at some point it becomes quite expensive to ignore, so you’d rather have something quite valuable to sell to compensate for it.
    - oldandboring 3y ago
      I may have found the only two sane people on HN. Of course, my handle is 'oldandboring' and yours is 'Agingcoder' so perhaps our grey hairs have something to do with this. I find it's not just technical people but everyone, everywhere seems to have irrational understandings of the nature of business and of the employer-employee relationship.
      - yieldcrv 3y ago
        the relationship just isn’t relevant I think there is merit to everything you say, if you’re flying blind and wondering why anything happens to you but if you objectively don’t care and work with integrity towards company output, none of the reindeer games matter yes, in a tighter job market where you have no savings all those things in your current job and those prior relationships matter if you want to reject that at the risk of being poorer, people are saying that’s fine too. if thats the reason you’re not financially stable: understandable, good for you for keeping a work life balance or prioritizing your mental health people aren't trying to say you’re inaccurate, only wrong in the sense that it’s not a necessary way to live and they aren’t going to pretend that it is anymore
        oldandboring 3y ago
        Now I am confused.
biglyburrito 3y ago
I'm fairly certain people working on-site never stopped companies from laying them off in droves when it suited them. So I'm fairly certain Citadel CEO Ken Griffin is full of shit.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  Don't underestimate the face-to-face element of it. People are assholes online. Sometimes even trolls. But in real life, they're often just respectful normal people. Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. Edit: I think I should be clear that the face-to-face element of it does make it that much harder. I remember having to fire someone face-to-face multiple times. Each time, it made me very nervous because I don't know how this person would physically react upon receiving the news. I also built real human connections with them so it's extra difficult. I believe that remote work makes this process far easier on both the manager and the company. In fact, I believe that managers would subconsciously choose to fire the remote worker over the in-person worker if all things are equal. For those who didn't read the article, the main point is in this quote: >If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job.
  - someone7x 3y ago
    As a champion of front running trades via payment-for-order-flow in general, and as a key villain in the GameStop saga in particular, surely there’s no shortage of people eager to tell him as much or worse to his face.
    - snapcaster 3y ago
      He's only a "key villain" in the minds of delusional bagholders
  - silisili 3y ago
    If my employment is being unexpectedly terminated, it doesn't really matter two sticks to me whether they're polite or not about it. I'll take the perks of remote work every time, even if it means me being humiliated in my firing.
manbash 3y ago
Hey look, another boss with another attempt to convince his workers to go back to office.
telepathy 3y ago
Why would anyone want to keep an employee they don't need?
- daveoc64 3y ago
  If they come into the office they must be useful.
jokethrowaway 3y ago
True, and it's much easier to quit a company if you're remote. Who gives a crap about a few avatars on your screen? That said, you just need a single yearly offsite to turn strangers into friends and improve cohesion, without sacrificing flexibility, productivity and life quality by forcing everyone to a dull office in a polluted city.
catchnear4321 3y ago
he is lamenting this. but not for why you might guess. > A disconnected—some might say unfeeling—workplace will be a “wild card” as industry leaders try to guess the unemployment rate going forward, Griffin went on. yes, it is in fact the same ken griffin.
gedy 3y ago
I'd still prefer it to "being escorted out" of the office or being locked out to get your personal items. It's nice to turn the tables where they need to ask for their hardware back.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  Enough people have been abusing this that we're starting to withhold final paychecks until equipment is in transit.
  - gedy 3y ago
    Yeah I think that's reasonable. Them asking and waiting for equipment is the key point, not keeping it.
plumeria 3y ago
Does he have any vested interest in office real state?
yieldcrv 3y ago
Also easy to keep 2 jobs and not worry about it
sonicanatidae 3y ago
Considering how Griffin treats his customers, and the market in general, this tracks.

39 points by voisin 3y ago

Whether it was that time my old boss yelled at me because I put off a scrum training exam until the 15th (due the 30th), or the respect I’ve gotten for having long hair…I find WFH has brought me closer to an objective, professional environment. So I’m willing to take the worse for the better. I don’t give a shit if your 6’3 and give a firm handshake, there’s too much bloat in the workforce and I don’t think personal relationships are all that important here.

xwolfi 3y ago
You misunderstand: work is not about a collection of individual contributions by skilled professionals, it's about convincing someone to give you time and money in exchange for providing the minimum satisfactory output. The client doesn't care how well or hard you work: he wants it asap for as little money as possible, and everything else in the chain between the client and you reacts to this tension. If a manager never sees you, and you produce a difficult to sell output, then he's not gonna suffer reputational damage for your sake defending you and your reasons for being X or Y on the output. If you produce an obvious advantage, then yes, but it's not everyone, and not every year: you will need, at some point, for someone else to do something for you. If not, no big deal anyway: you can just be fired and move on. But it's never gonna be about firm handshakes, it's about trust even in temporary failure.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Agingcoder 3y ago
  I very much agree with this, but it took me a long time to get it. I believe it’s one of the key difficulties for more technical types : understanding that software engineering, once you go past the very local aspects of it ( my dev on my workstation in programming language A ) is first and foremost and human activity. Some may want to ignore this, but like you said at some point it becomes quite expensive to ignore, so you’d rather have something quite valuable to sell to compensate for it.
  - oldandboring 3y ago
    I may have found the only two sane people on HN. Of course, my handle is 'oldandboring' and yours is 'Agingcoder' so perhaps our grey hairs have something to do with this. I find it's not just technical people but everyone, everywhere seems to have irrational understandings of the nature of business and of the employer-employee relationship.
    - yieldcrv 3y ago
      the relationship just isn’t relevant I think there is merit to everything you say, if you’re flying blind and wondering why anything happens to you but if you objectively don’t care and work with integrity towards company output, none of the reindeer games matter yes, in a tighter job market where you have no savings all those things in your current job and those prior relationships matter if you want to reject that at the risk of being poorer, people are saying that’s fine too. if thats the reason you’re not financially stable: understandable, good for you for keeping a work life balance or prioritizing your mental health people aren't trying to say you’re inaccurate, only wrong in the sense that it’s not a necessary way to live and they aren’t going to pretend that it is anymore
      - oldandboring 3y ago
        Now I am confused.

biglyburrito 3y ago

I'm fairly certain people working on-site never stopped companies from laying them off in droves when it suited them. So I'm fairly certain Citadel CEO Ken Griffin is full of shit.

aurareturn 3y ago
Don't underestimate the face-to-face element of it. People are assholes online. Sometimes even trolls. But in real life, they're often just respectful normal people. Heck, you wouldn't say that Ken Griffin is full of shit to his face if you met him but you said it on an online forum. Edit: I think I should be clear that the face-to-face element of it does make it that much harder. I remember having to fire someone face-to-face multiple times. Each time, it made me very nervous because I don't know how this person would physically react upon receiving the news. I also built real human connections with them so it's extra difficult. I believe that remote work makes this process far easier on both the manager and the company. In fact, I believe that managers would subconsciously choose to fire the remote worker over the in-person worker if all things are equal. For those who didn't read the article, the main point is in this quote: >If your boss doesn’t know you personally, they won’t stick their neck out to save your job.
- someone7x 3y ago
  As a champion of front running trades via payment-for-order-flow in general, and as a key villain in the GameStop saga in particular, surely there’s no shortage of people eager to tell him as much or worse to his face.
  - snapcaster 3y ago
    He's only a "key villain" in the minds of delusional bagholders
- silisili 3y ago
  If my employment is being unexpectedly terminated, it doesn't really matter two sticks to me whether they're polite or not about it. I'll take the perks of remote work every time, even if it means me being humiliated in my firing.

manbash 3y ago

Hey look, another boss with another attempt to convince his workers to go back to office.

telepathy 3y ago

Why would anyone want to keep an employee they don't need?

daveoc64 3y ago
If they come into the office they must be useful.

jokethrowaway 3y ago

True, and it's much easier to quit a company if you're remote. Who gives a crap about a few avatars on your screen? That said, you just need a single yearly offsite to turn strangers into friends and improve cohesion, without sacrificing flexibility, productivity and life quality by forcing everyone to a dull office in a polluted city.

catchnear4321 3y ago

he is lamenting this. but not for why you might guess. > A disconnected—some might say unfeeling—workplace will be a “wild card” as industry leaders try to guess the unemployment rate going forward, Griffin went on. yes, it is in fact the same ken griffin.

gedy 3y ago

I'd still prefer it to "being escorted out" of the office or being locked out to get your personal items. It's nice to turn the tables where they need to ask for their hardware back.

jstarfish 3y ago
Enough people have been abusing this that we're starting to withhold final paychecks until equipment is in transit.
- gedy 3y ago
  Yeah I think that's reasonable. Them asking and waiting for equipment is the key point, not keeping it.

plumeria 3y ago

Does he have any vested interest in office real state?

yieldcrv 3y ago

Also easy to keep 2 jobs and not worry about it

sonicanatidae 3y ago

Considering how Griffin treats his customers, and the market in general, this tracks.