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73% of antibiotics globally are used for livestock production, not for human use, and yet we tend to only hear about how humans need to cut back. How about we

73% of antibiotics globally are used for livestock production, not for human use, and yet we tend to only hear about how humans need to cut back. How about we require ranchers to decrease their animal density so they don't need to use so many antibiotics? https://www.nrdc.org/resources/us-livestock-industries-persist-high-intensity-antibiotic-use#:~:text=An%20estimated%2073%20percent%20of,have%20repeatedly%20found%20that%20the https://www.nrdc.org/resources/us-livestock-industries-persi...

bequanna 3y ago
I agree with you on high density confinement livestock production. But is there evidence of antibiotic resistant strains in animals causing issues for humans?
- rtkwe 3y ago
  There are a number of bacteria that have made the jump from animals to people so creating a huge breeding pool for very antibiotic resistant bacteria that have generated human viruses in the past seems like a poor choice.
  - kungfufrog 3y ago
    Do you mean bacteria? Viruses are not treated by antibiotics.
- rando_dfad 3y ago
  Yes, a quick google turned up these: Antibiotic Resistance from the Farm to the Table. September 11, 2014. Available at: http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/from-farm-to-table.html http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/from-farm-to-table.html. Accessed September 14, 2015. https://www.who.int/news/item/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance https://www.who.int/news/item/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiot... ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE—LINKING HUMAN AND ANIMAL HEALTH https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114485/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114485/ Much of modern medicine depends on antibiotics. The above resources give clear and compelling evidence that overuse of antibiotics in livestock is associated with increases in drug-resistant infections in humans.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>How about we require ranchers to decrease their animal density so they don't need to use so many antibiotics? That would massively drive up meat prices and anger voting consumers who won't be able to afford meant anymore, and also anger voting meat producers who will go bankrupt from slumping sales and have to lay off workers, all of which who will direct their anger at the politicians who restricted the use of antibiotics in animal farms. So not gonna happen politically. Consumers have to either accept higher meat prices (not gonna happen), or accept that we're too many consumers on the planet for everyone to be fed with organically grown meat (also not gonna happen), so we just kick the can down the road and sweep the dirt under the rug until the titanic hits the iceberg and there's no way forward anymore. Here in the rich EU countries we have some rules and regulations on meat production, but enforcement is very lax and it's an open secret that those certification seals of approval are basically worthless as animals are still caged together crowded in their own filth, with massively infected open wounds full of puss, and pumped full of antibiotics just to stay alive long enough to become burgers. You should Google those images if you want to become vegan but lack the motivation. It's a political tragedy of the commons that's found in a lot of other areas in our lives/society which we know for a fact are wrong and are harming us (or others from less fortunate parts of the world), but we still stick to them because they're very profitable industries generating $$$ and jobs, and they're such a tight part of our daily lives, they're nearly impossible to undo today, like all the pollution from car dependence, microplastics, the cheap cocoa and coffee industries driven by slave labor, etc. See the dead body spaghetti episode from Rick and Morty, it's pretty good satire on our collective hypocrisy on this topic. We know those are all bad, but we choose to look the other way and not do anything about it because we love our lifestyles with cheap car traveling, cheap shipping, cheap meat, cheap coffee, cheap clothing, etc. and all the associated profits.
- omginternets 3y ago
  I’d rather pay a bit more for meat than be forced down the path of questionable meat-substitutes. Maybe meat has been unsustainably cheap for a long time? I am quite far from the vegan ideology, but still willing to recognize that there is something untenable about our current relationship with livestock.
whatshisface 3y ago
Because doctors and farmers have more effective representation than anyone who looks at the whole.
flukus 3y ago
> yet we tend to only hear about how humans need to cut back There's also financial reasons to do so, with livestock the financial reasons are likely reversed. Beside that, anti-biotics also have side effects that can make you more sick, their use is not just unnecessary but counter productive. Some of the side effects can be serious and long term, like changing your gut bacteria.
meany 3y ago
At least in the US there has been recent progress on this. The USDA just released new rules on June 11, 2023. https://extension.umn.edu/news/over-counter-livestock-antibiotics-are-moving-prescription-only-june-11-2023 https://extension.umn.edu/news/over-counter-livestock-antibi... Starting June 11, 2023, all currently available over-the-counter antibiotics for livestock will be available only as prescription medications. This new rule will impact all livestock species. Over-the-counter antibiotics are moving to prescription only to provide more veterinary oversight. Similar to the Veterinary Feed Directive, placing antibiotics under the supervision of veterinarians should result in more judicious use and less antibiotic resistance. This change includes but is not limited to the following: Penicillin, Oxytetracycline, Sulfa antibiotics and Mastitis tubes. Some medications are not considered crucial for human medicine and will remain over-the-counter. This includes the following: Ionophores including Rumensin and Bovatec, Parasiticides, such as Ivermectin, Oral pre/pro/postbiotics, and topical non-antibiotic treatments. Livestock producers must have a valid Veterinary-Client-Patient Relationship (VCPR) in place before they can be prescribed antibiotics by a veterinarian. A VCPR is a working relationship between a veterinarian (veterinary clinic) and a client. Ideally, a VCPR is a documented agreement between both parties that includes a dedicated visit to the animal location(s) the client operates. This visit and documentation must occur at least once every year to maintain the VCPR.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  This is progress but still drastically short of EU regs where livestock/poultry are subject to stricter vaccination requirements. For example, vaccination for salmonella. In the US, poultry industry and federal/state governments have spent endless effort "programming" people to think that it's their responsibility if they get sick because the meat or eggs they purchased were contaminated and they didn't take enough preventative steps (like cooking it to the point of it being nearly inedible.) Most US poultry is rinsed in chlorinated water, eggs are washed as well (which ends up destroying the egg's natural coating, so they have to be refrigerated) and so on.
alkonaut 3y ago
I don't buy meat from anywhere you can give healthy livestock antibiotics, period. It's really easy (obviously in case you live in such a country you'd be forced to not buy meat or buy imported, which is more expensive and worse for the environment).
- renewiltord 3y ago
  How to determine this? Do you have to analyse supply chain or do you just have no chain (i.e. you are near farm and you know farm owner)? EDIT: Thank you to responses below.
  - lozenge 3y ago
    > In January 2022, the routine use of antibiotics was banned in the EU, and preventative use was restricted to exceptional treatments of individual animals EU law is pretty strict about labelling meat coming from the EU/outside the EU so that could be one way.
  - layer8 3y ago
    Organic meat generally implies no antibiotics, for example under the USDA label.
  - alkonaut 3y ago
    I just look at the flag and know which countries have good meat. E.g. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-livestock https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-lives... There may be local regulations or labellings to (e.g. some organic labeling means no antibiotic and so on). But as a first rule I just try to avoid meat from "bad" countries. E.g. we get quite a lot of imported Brazilian beef in stores and I know it's terrible both for deforestation and antibiotics so I avoid that completely. Some interesting differences in the map is e.g. between Australia And NZ.
    - willsmith72 3y ago
      So all your meat is imported from another country? Surely in the long run there are better more sustainable ways
treypitt 3y ago
Obviously because that would require people cut back on meat consumption. I was struck by a recent study indicating most men would rather die young than stop eating meat: https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/a36261605/red-meat-health/ https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/a36261605/red-meat-h...
- bimguy 3y ago
  "most men would rather die young than stop eating meat" Seriously, you're going to phrase it like that? How about this, I enjoy a balanced diet and if that is going to kill me young then so be it. If I was scared of dying I would be much more worried about the coat of plastic dust that lines the entire planet, including vegetables being grown and the grass/feed that animals eat, and the fact that I'm extremely likely to die of cancer due to plastics everywhere, metal particles everywhere, chemicals everywhere... if the meat doesn't get me first.
  - artimaeis 3y ago
    What if it wasn’t about you dying? What if it was to make the world better? What amount of suffering in the world would cause you to even consider the option of eating less meat? Is it something you’re willing to contemplate? Not just animal suffering either. Think of the complicated web of problems that come out of people eating too much meat. The antibiotic use discussed in this thread. The methane byproduct discussed in countless others. The inhumane conditions of most butchers (for workers! Let’s forget the animals still). It’s okay if none of that bothers you. We’re only human. I’m a former vegan, I’ve likely considered it all more than strictly necessary. I don’t think anyone _has_ to be anything. But for what it’s worth it _could_ be about more than an individual’s health.
    - bimguy 3y ago
      "What if it wasn’t about you dying? What if it was to make the world better?" That would be a different discussion, with a different answer. I was only replying to the comment above mine. Yes... animals produce waste & suffer from infections... Inhumane conditions exist in the minority in every industry. You're claiming most butchers/abattoirs have inhumane conditions in an industry that I'm certain you've never worked in. You're a former vegan but I see that you're still brain-washed by the material that you were hand fed.
rqtwteye 3y ago
Same for water. We are told to have shorter showers while farmers use most of the water for inefficient practices to grow unsuitable plants for the region.
rmccue 3y ago
I don’t believe this is true in the Australian context though: > Australian animal industries are one of the lowest users of antimicrobials in the world https://www.amr.gov.au/about-amr/amr-australia/animal-health https://www.amr.gov.au/about-amr/amr-australia/animal-health
- knifie_spoonie 3y ago
  Another commenter below posted this map: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-livestock https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-lives... Assuming the data is accurate, it would seem antibiotic use (not sure how that compares with antimicrobials in general) is not particularly low compare to other countries.
  - rmccue 3y ago
    Interesting! From the cited paper itself: > The top 5 consumers in 2020 were China, Brazil, India, USA, and Australia But also: > In contrast, Australia now also appears among the top 5 –however, in the absence of any public report of AMU since 2010 [29], usage for Australia was obtained through extrapolation, as with other countries that do not report data. Therefore, predictions may not accurately reflect the current country efforts to reduce AMU. So it's not clear if the data actually is accurate (and the paper really is about how accurate data is missing for many countries).
BurningFrog 3y ago
How much does livestock eating antibiotics really affect the problem of resistant bacteria infecting humans? Farmers don't use antibiotics for fun. It increases meat production by 5-10%. So expect meat prices to go up by about that amount if the practice gets banned.
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  > How much does livestock eating antibiotics really affect the problem of resistant bacteria infecting humans? Bacteria transfer genes from one species to another, so an innovative new genetic mutation that allows one kind of bacteria to shrug off antibiotics more effectively won't stay only in that species of bacteria or only on that farm. > Horizontal gene transfer is the movement of genetic information between organisms, a process that includes the spread of antibiotic resistance genes among bacteria, fueling pathogen evolution. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536854/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536854/
seunosewa 3y ago
This means more expensive food. Are the poor willing and able to pay more?
- bromuro 3y ago
  Are “the poor” and “the rich” willing to have an healthier diet? Meat should be an expensive food. it’s costs for the environment and the humanity are too high.

bequanna 3y ago

I agree with you on high density confinement livestock production. But is there evidence of antibiotic resistant strains in animals causing issues for humans?

rtkwe 3y ago
There are a number of bacteria that have made the jump from animals to people so creating a huge breeding pool for very antibiotic resistant bacteria that have generated human viruses in the past seems like a poor choice.
- kungfufrog 3y ago
  Do you mean bacteria? Viruses are not treated by antibiotics.
rando_dfad 3y ago
Yes, a quick google turned up these: Antibiotic Resistance from the Farm to the Table. September 11, 2014. Available at: http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/from-farm-to-table.html http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/from-farm-to-table.html. Accessed September 14, 2015. https://www.who.int/news/item/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiotics-in-healthy-animals-to-prevent-the-spread-of-antibiotic-resistance https://www.who.int/news/item/07-11-2017-stop-using-antibiot... ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE—LINKING HUMAN AND ANIMAL HEALTH https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114485/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114485/ Much of modern medicine depends on antibiotics. The above resources give clear and compelling evidence that overuse of antibiotics in livestock is associated with increases in drug-resistant infections in humans.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>How about we require ranchers to decrease their animal density so they don't need to use so many antibiotics? That would massively drive up meat prices and anger voting consumers who won't be able to afford meant anymore, and also anger voting meat producers who will go bankrupt from slumping sales and have to lay off workers, all of which who will direct their anger at the politicians who restricted the use of antibiotics in animal farms. So not gonna happen politically. Consumers have to either accept higher meat prices (not gonna happen), or accept that we're too many consumers on the planet for everyone to be fed with organically grown meat (also not gonna happen), so we just kick the can down the road and sweep the dirt under the rug until the titanic hits the iceberg and there's no way forward anymore. Here in the rich EU countries we have some rules and regulations on meat production, but enforcement is very lax and it's an open secret that those certification seals of approval are basically worthless as animals are still caged together crowded in their own filth, with massively infected open wounds full of puss, and pumped full of antibiotics just to stay alive long enough to become burgers. You should Google those images if you want to become vegan but lack the motivation. It's a political tragedy of the commons that's found in a lot of other areas in our lives/society which we know for a fact are wrong and are harming us (or others from less fortunate parts of the world), but we still stick to them because they're very profitable industries generating $$$ and jobs, and they're such a tight part of our daily lives, they're nearly impossible to undo today, like all the pollution from car dependence, microplastics, the cheap cocoa and coffee industries driven by slave labor, etc. See the dead body spaghetti episode from Rick and Morty, it's pretty good satire on our collective hypocrisy on this topic. We know those are all bad, but we choose to look the other way and not do anything about it because we love our lifestyles with cheap car traveling, cheap shipping, cheap meat, cheap coffee, cheap clothing, etc. and all the associated profits.

omginternets 3y ago
I’d rather pay a bit more for meat than be forced down the path of questionable meat-substitutes. Maybe meat has been unsustainably cheap for a long time? I am quite far from the vegan ideology, but still willing to recognize that there is something untenable about our current relationship with livestock.

whatshisface 3y ago

Because doctors and farmers have more effective representation than anyone who looks at the whole.

flukus 3y ago

> yet we tend to only hear about how humans need to cut back There's also financial reasons to do so, with livestock the financial reasons are likely reversed. Beside that, anti-biotics also have side effects that can make you more sick, their use is not just unnecessary but counter productive. Some of the side effects can be serious and long term, like changing your gut bacteria.

meany 3y ago

At least in the US there has been recent progress on this. The USDA just released new rules on June 11, 2023. https://extension.umn.edu/news/over-counter-livestock-antibiotics-are-moving-prescription-only-june-11-2023 https://extension.umn.edu/news/over-counter-livestock-antibi... Starting June 11, 2023, all currently available over-the-counter antibiotics for livestock will be available only as prescription medications. This new rule will impact all livestock species. Over-the-counter antibiotics are moving to prescription only to provide more veterinary oversight. Similar to the Veterinary Feed Directive, placing antibiotics under the supervision of veterinarians should result in more judicious use and less antibiotic resistance. This change includes but is not limited to the following: Penicillin, Oxytetracycline, Sulfa antibiotics and Mastitis tubes. Some medications are not considered crucial for human medicine and will remain over-the-counter. This includes the following: Ionophores including Rumensin and Bovatec, Parasiticides, such as Ivermectin, Oral pre/pro/postbiotics, and topical non-antibiotic treatments. Livestock producers must have a valid Veterinary-Client-Patient Relationship (VCPR) in place before they can be prescribed antibiotics by a veterinarian. A VCPR is a working relationship between a veterinarian (veterinary clinic) and a client. Ideally, a VCPR is a documented agreement between both parties that includes a dedicated visit to the animal location(s) the client operates. This visit and documentation must occur at least once every year to maintain the VCPR.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
KennyBlanken 3y ago
This is progress but still drastically short of EU regs where livestock/poultry are subject to stricter vaccination requirements. For example, vaccination for salmonella. In the US, poultry industry and federal/state governments have spent endless effort "programming" people to think that it's their responsibility if they get sick because the meat or eggs they purchased were contaminated and they didn't take enough preventative steps (like cooking it to the point of it being nearly inedible.) Most US poultry is rinsed in chlorinated water, eggs are washed as well (which ends up destroying the egg's natural coating, so they have to be refrigerated) and so on.

alkonaut 3y ago

I don't buy meat from anywhere you can give healthy livestock antibiotics, period. It's really easy (obviously in case you live in such a country you'd be forced to not buy meat or buy imported, which is more expensive and worse for the environment).

renewiltord 3y ago
How to determine this? Do you have to analyse supply chain or do you just have no chain (i.e. you are near farm and you know farm owner)? EDIT: Thank you to responses below.
- lozenge 3y ago
  > In January 2022, the routine use of antibiotics was banned in the EU, and preventative use was restricted to exceptional treatments of individual animals EU law is pretty strict about labelling meat coming from the EU/outside the EU so that could be one way.
- layer8 3y ago
  Organic meat generally implies no antibiotics, for example under the USDA label.
- alkonaut 3y ago
  I just look at the flag and know which countries have good meat. E.g. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-livestock https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-lives... There may be local regulations or labellings to (e.g. some organic labeling means no antibiotic and so on). But as a first rule I just try to avoid meat from "bad" countries. E.g. we get quite a lot of imported Brazilian beef in stores and I know it's terrible both for deforestation and antibiotics so I avoid that completely. Some interesting differences in the map is e.g. between Australia And NZ.
  - willsmith72 3y ago
    So all your meat is imported from another country? Surely in the long run there are better more sustainable ways

treypitt 3y ago

Obviously because that would require people cut back on meat consumption. I was struck by a recent study indicating most men would rather die young than stop eating meat: https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/a36261605/red-meat-health/ https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/a36261605/red-meat-h...

bimguy 3y ago
"most men would rather die young than stop eating meat" Seriously, you're going to phrase it like that? How about this, I enjoy a balanced diet and if that is going to kill me young then so be it. If I was scared of dying I would be much more worried about the coat of plastic dust that lines the entire planet, including vegetables being grown and the grass/feed that animals eat, and the fact that I'm extremely likely to die of cancer due to plastics everywhere, metal particles everywhere, chemicals everywhere... if the meat doesn't get me first.
- artimaeis 3y ago
  What if it wasn’t about you dying? What if it was to make the world better? What amount of suffering in the world would cause you to even consider the option of eating less meat? Is it something you’re willing to contemplate? Not just animal suffering either. Think of the complicated web of problems that come out of people eating too much meat. The antibiotic use discussed in this thread. The methane byproduct discussed in countless others. The inhumane conditions of most butchers (for workers! Let’s forget the animals still). It’s okay if none of that bothers you. We’re only human. I’m a former vegan, I’ve likely considered it all more than strictly necessary. I don’t think anyone _has_ to be anything. But for what it’s worth it _could_ be about more than an individual’s health.
  - bimguy 3y ago
    "What if it wasn’t about you dying? What if it was to make the world better?" That would be a different discussion, with a different answer. I was only replying to the comment above mine. Yes... animals produce waste & suffer from infections... Inhumane conditions exist in the minority in every industry. You're claiming most butchers/abattoirs have inhumane conditions in an industry that I'm certain you've never worked in. You're a former vegan but I see that you're still brain-washed by the material that you were hand fed.

rqtwteye 3y ago

Same for water. We are told to have shorter showers while farmers use most of the water for inefficient practices to grow unsuitable plants for the region.

rmccue 3y ago

I don’t believe this is true in the Australian context though: > Australian animal industries are one of the lowest users of antimicrobials in the world https://www.amr.gov.au/about-amr/amr-australia/animal-health https://www.amr.gov.au/about-amr/amr-australia/animal-health

knifie_spoonie 3y ago
Another commenter below posted this map: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-livestock https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-usage-in-lives... Assuming the data is accurate, it would seem antibiotic use (not sure how that compares with antimicrobials in general) is not particularly low compare to other countries.
- rmccue 3y ago
  Interesting! From the cited paper itself: > The top 5 consumers in 2020 were China, Brazil, India, USA, and Australia But also: > In contrast, Australia now also appears among the top 5 –however, in the absence of any public report of AMU since 2010 [29], usage for Australia was obtained through extrapolation, as with other countries that do not report data. Therefore, predictions may not accurately reflect the current country efforts to reduce AMU. So it's not clear if the data actually is accurate (and the paper really is about how accurate data is missing for many countries).

BurningFrog 3y ago

How much does livestock eating antibiotics really affect the problem of resistant bacteria infecting humans? Farmers don't use antibiotics for fun. It increases meat production by 5-10%. So expect meat prices to go up by about that amount if the practice gets banned.

GeekyBear 3y ago
> How much does livestock eating antibiotics really affect the problem of resistant bacteria infecting humans? Bacteria transfer genes from one species to another, so an innovative new genetic mutation that allows one kind of bacteria to shrug off antibiotics more effectively won't stay only in that species of bacteria or only on that farm. > Horizontal gene transfer is the movement of genetic information between organisms, a process that includes the spread of antibiotic resistance genes among bacteria, fueling pathogen evolution. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536854/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536854/

seunosewa 3y ago

This means more expensive food. Are the poor willing and able to pay more?

bromuro 3y ago
Are “the poor” and “the rich” willing to have an healthier diet? Meat should be an expensive food. it’s costs for the environment and the humanity are too high.