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Our prison system is inhumane and our treatment of prisoners is torture. I don't doubt there will be a lot of resistance to cleaning the system up because basic

Our prison system is inhumane and our treatment of prisoners is torture. I don't doubt there will be a lot of resistance to cleaning the system up because basically everyone involved is guilty and won't like the idea of suddenly being vulnerable to being held accountable for what they've been doing. There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. A disturbingly high number of people want criminals to go to prison and get beaten and raped. They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it as long it isn't them personally and so long as at least some people they feel "deserve it" are being tortured. I'd like to think that those attitudes will change and eventually we'll start improving things, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

alwaysrunning 3y ago
Not to mention their cut in untaxed income should they stop smuggling contraband for gangs.
manicennui 3y ago
They also don't think about what happens to these people when they are eventually released.
drewcoo 3y ago
> There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. Go to the movies. Sex is such a taboo that if it's depicted in detail it is unfit for adult theaters. Maiming and killing is ok even for children. Our morals are upside down. And constantly being reinforced to stay that way.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas, and the prisons there are most definitely not in any way similar. I believe it is part of the US mentality. Like the SUV, guns, "Freedom", etc. Hollywood portray the US, not the other way around.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas Maybe it's better now but Scandinavia has had their moments of censorship keeping those "same movies" out of theaters. Sweden banned The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, Mad Max, and even ET (for ages under 11). Norway banned Ichi the Killer, I Spit on Your Grave, and A Serbian Film.
    - Dah00n 3y ago
      I'm not sure what your point is, unless you are saying those few films are what made Scandinavian prisons different, and if that is your point then I have no idea how to reply...
froh 3y ago
it's not just punishment. per the constitution forced / slave labor is only abolished for non-prisoners. prisoners are no citizens. many loose the right to vote, too. and _that_ again is a major reason why marijuana was made a felony crime.
- autoexec 3y ago
  The use of prison slaves is slowly changing. Some states have passed laws to ban the practice (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63578133 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63578133) although even there enforcement needs a lot of work (https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-forced-labor-movement https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-for...) but I'm encouraged by the direction things are headed. It's an uphill battle since corporations are fighting like hell to keep their slaves. Big companies like aramark, mcdonald's, walmart, target, victoria's secret, microsoft, whole foods, starbucks, and wendys have profited heavily from the prison plantation system. It's impressive that there's been as much success putting a stop to it as there has been.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    Before private labor, we put them on chain gangs, and deemed that inhumane when cars veering off the road would gouranga the entire crew. We call it slavery, but is it? Yeah, prisoners make $1 an hour to work for private industry. That sucks for prisoners, sure, but they're being fed, housed, and receiving healthcare at taxpayer expense even without opting-in. The extra $6/hr they don't get paid subsidizes their stay...literally repaying their debts to society. What's the real objection to this? Competitive disadvantage?
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      >but they're being fed, housed, and receiving healthcare at taxpayer expense even without opting-in All slaves receive these things. Its in the interest of the slave owner to keep the slaves healthy enough to work. Modern companies shouldn't get a discount by using slave labor. If the prisoner wants to learn a "skill" that is profitable to a company then they should be paid the minimum wage. Its less awful, but I also believe unpaid internships should also be illegal unless they are purely observational. If the intern is contributing in anyway to the profits of the company, they should be paid.
akira2501 3y ago
> A disturbingly high number of people want criminals to go to prison and get beaten and raped. I've heard this trope a lot, but I wonder, is there any data to actually back it up? > They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it Here I'm certain there is no data to back up this point, anecdotally, this seems the opposite of the truth. Perhaps you just mean the prosecutors and not the citizenry in general?
- Deprecate9151 3y ago
  I doubt you can get concrete data on point one, but it is a commonly repeated trope. At best many people are too okay treating prison abuse as a joke. For the second point, many US Prosecutors are elected. They run on a "tough on crime" platform, and tout their successful conviction % as a key metric of success. Very little credence is given to anything else. It's not a direct poll, but it's more than 'no data'.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    It seems reasonable to cite a high conviction rate as evidence of competence and success in your role as the state’s prosecutor of crimes against the people. It’s not the only metric to look at, but it’s absolutely a relevant metric.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      But then you also run into the issue of the plea deal. A disturbingly high number of cases are plead out - in some states that number approaches 90%. This is more than any other country on earth, and by a huge margin. Many countries completely forbid plea bargaining, and most of those who allow it have strict rules on implementation, oversight and review, where here it is almost entirely purely at a prosecutor's discretion. This falsely pushes conviction rates up, as there are huge swathes of cases where it has been demonstrated that people plead out as the path of least resistance, rather than factual guilt.
    - Deprecate9151 3y ago
      Another commentator touched on how those stats can be misleading, so I want to stress that it is often touted as the only relevant metric. You never see it presented in context of total number of indictments, overturns on appeal, break downs by offense, etc. I'd even argue it's ONLY relevant in the context of other stats. For example, the other issue I didn't see the other commentor speak on is it can lead to UNDER enforcement. It can create an incentive to ignore "complicated" wrong doing, or quickly dropping charges against those who plea bargain to preserve a high conviction rate, even if it's against the public interest. So when you see "conviction rate" it's impossible to know if they're actually good at prosecuting. You can only tell they're good at identifying cases where a conviction is highly likely.
andrei_says_ 3y ago
Exactly. Prison culture is a mirror of our collective psyche. We as a society are gleefully accepting of cruel and unreasonable punishment, with a disturbing level of bloodthirstiness. Similarly, we are accepting of the merciless brutality of Healthcare-as-industry. The unspeakable violence of poverty. We have hardened our hearts in order to see, walk by, live along these, and more, sources of easily preventable suffering. This hardening is making us sick, too. We just somehow can't make the connection.
- sershe 3y ago
  Poverty is the default state of humanity. There's no unspeakable violence in it. Not to mention that "poverty" in the US is a luxurious lifestyle by worldwide standards (source: I'm an immigrant, and not even from the poorest country by far). It would be really strange if observing the default state of humanity would make humans sick. Ditto for punishment - historically punishments have been much more harsh (the only modern innovation that I'd really support for violent and property crime is dealing with is reducing false convictions; 3-strike type laws deal with that well, I wish they were more widespread). The mental health / politics correlation in the US, especially in recent years, seems to indicate that it's being excessively bleeding-heart that's making "us" sick.
robotnikman 3y ago
It seems to be changing slowly but surely, thankfully. There was a recent post on Reddit made by a prisoner [1] (who was in for life for murdering his sister) who has a locker full of manga, books, MtG cards, and a tablet with minecraft (which he rooted to allow for sideloading of apps). He says he feels very comfortable with the prison life there. I never expected this from a prison in the state of Georgia of all places. This is only one anecdote, but it struck me as surprising when I heard of it. The more we start to focus prisons on rehabilitation instead of just punishment, the better. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/Prison/comments/q96ixg/this_is_what_happens_when_you_incarcerate_a_nerd/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Prison/comments/q96ixg/this_is_what...
- jstarfish 3y ago
  He's an interesting case. > [...] I was a young kid who thought I was smart and clever and thought I knew people. Prison dunked my head in a cold river of reality. Many people in these prisons have a strong criminal mindset. You learn by fucking up that there are always people who have had it worse, are more clever, stronger, but also more debased, cruel, and uncaring. From this though I have been forced to overcome my autism symptoms. I was thrown off by loud noises, physical contact, and was completely socially inept before I came to prison. Free world society softly caters to autistic kids but in prison you have no choice but to confront your mental health. In short, prison is an adverse environment which can bring out the good, or more often the bad, in people. As a young kid I learned quick that I couldn't rely on any staff or inmates as far as trust goes. I quickly saw I wasn't going to be babied and if I didn't fight for myself and who I was I would be lost. Not everyone becomes a paragon, very few do. [...] Not sure what to make of him. He's very forthcoming about what he did, but evasive about the why.
  - strken 3y ago
    I think he genuinely doesn't know, and he isn't being evasive so much as expressing his own confusion. There's video of his confession on YouTube and he just directly admits to murder. The whole thing is in a flat voice and he looks borderline catatonic. It's a really strange case. He arguably belongs in a forensic mental health institution rather than a prison. Or maybe normal prisons should be more like hospitals.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. A No, you just don't understand the civilization you were born into. It's not a fetish... it's the point. If government promises to punish transgressors, then individuals will refrain from vigilante justice. This punishment is done, because our monkey morality demands it. There are a few secondary goals. We also seek to sequester the offender away from society, so they can't do more injury. We hope (mostly in vain) that public acknowledgement of the punishment acts as a deterrent. > They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it Can't speak for anyone else, but I care about that. It's mostly easy policy fixes too. If prosecutors were barred from using plea bargaining (we don't have to ban it absolutely, limit it to 1% of the cases they see per calendar year), some large chunk of the wrongly-convicted would avoid that fate. Absolutely demolish bail bonding as an industry. Hell, if you really want to fix stuff... Prohibit eyewitness testimony in court, including but especially confessions (they can be useful as investigative leads, but aren't evidence of anything except some really perverse human psychology). Who am I supposed to talk to to get the policy fixes implemented? Maybe it's not the attitude problem you think it is.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > because our human morality demands it. This impulse pre-dates hominids by quite a bit. It's shared with some non-mammalian birds.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > Prohibit eyewitness testimony in court The Constitution* enshrines the right to face your accuser in open court. That to me seems proper; why do you propose to eliminate it (what gain do you expect)? If you want to eliminate that right, there is a process for amending the Constitution laid out in the document itself. * Technically, the Sixth Amendment.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    > The Constitution* enshrines the right to face your accuser in open court. Sure. They'll get to see the face. Of course, for the vast majority of crimes, the accuser is the state. > That to me seems proper; why do you propose to eliminate it Because we don't allow dream interpretation, tarot card readings, or other nonsense to be admitted as evidence either. You know how every few months you hear of some black man that has been in prison for rape for 30 years, until DNA evidence exonerates? Behind every one of those convictions there was some sobbing woman on the stands pointing a finger at him. Eyewitness testimony is junk of the lowest grade, below even those tarot cards I joked about. But yeh, they'll get to sit in the same courtroom with any accusers, we just won't let the accusers get up and make up bullshit that they believe are infallible memories. This isn't a constitutional issue. Legislation is absolutely permitted to set standards of evidence.
WD40forRust 3y ago
[dead]

alwaysrunning 3y ago

Not to mention their cut in untaxed income should they stop smuggling contraband for gangs.

manicennui 3y ago

They also don't think about what happens to these people when they are eventually released.

drewcoo 3y ago

> There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. Go to the movies. Sex is such a taboo that if it's depicted in detail it is unfit for adult theaters. Maiming and killing is ok even for children. Our morals are upside down. And constantly being reinforced to stay that way.

Dah00n 3y ago
The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas, and the prisons there are most definitely not in any way similar. I believe it is part of the US mentality. Like the SUV, guns, "Freedom", etc. Hollywood portray the US, not the other way around.
- autoexec 3y ago
  > The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas Maybe it's better now but Scandinavia has had their moments of censorship keeping those "same movies" out of theaters. Sweden banned The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, Mad Max, and even ET (for ages under 11). Norway banned Ichi the Killer, I Spit on Your Grave, and A Serbian Film.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    I'm not sure what your point is, unless you are saying those few films are what made Scandinavian prisons different, and if that is your point then I have no idea how to reply...

froh 3y ago

it's not just punishment. per the constitution forced / slave labor is only abolished for non-prisoners. prisoners are no citizens. many loose the right to vote, too. and _that_ again is a major reason why marijuana was made a felony crime.

autoexec 3y ago
The use of prison slaves is slowly changing. Some states have passed laws to ban the practice (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63578133 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63578133) although even there enforcement needs a lot of work (https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-forced-labor-movement https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-for...) but I'm encouraged by the direction things are headed. It's an uphill battle since corporations are fighting like hell to keep their slaves. Big companies like aramark, mcdonald's, walmart, target, victoria's secret, microsoft, whole foods, starbucks, and wendys have profited heavily from the prison plantation system. It's impressive that there's been as much success putting a stop to it as there has been.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  Before private labor, we put them on chain gangs, and deemed that inhumane when cars veering off the road would gouranga the entire crew. We call it slavery, but is it? Yeah, prisoners make $1 an hour to work for private industry. That sucks for prisoners, sure, but they're being fed, housed, and receiving healthcare at taxpayer expense even without opting-in. The extra $6/hr they don't get paid subsidizes their stay...literally repaying their debts to society. What's the real objection to this? Competitive disadvantage?
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    >but they're being fed, housed, and receiving healthcare at taxpayer expense even without opting-in All slaves receive these things. Its in the interest of the slave owner to keep the slaves healthy enough to work. Modern companies shouldn't get a discount by using slave labor. If the prisoner wants to learn a "skill" that is profitable to a company then they should be paid the minimum wage. Its less awful, but I also believe unpaid internships should also be illegal unless they are purely observational. If the intern is contributing in anyway to the profits of the company, they should be paid.

akira2501 3y ago

> A disturbingly high number of people want criminals to go to prison and get beaten and raped. I've heard this trope a lot, but I wonder, is there any data to actually back it up? > They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it Here I'm certain there is no data to back up this point, anecdotally, this seems the opposite of the truth. Perhaps you just mean the prosecutors and not the citizenry in general?

Deprecate9151 3y ago
I doubt you can get concrete data on point one, but it is a commonly repeated trope. At best many people are too okay treating prison abuse as a joke. For the second point, many US Prosecutors are elected. They run on a "tough on crime" platform, and tout their successful conviction % as a key metric of success. Very little credence is given to anything else. It's not a direct poll, but it's more than 'no data'.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  It seems reasonable to cite a high conviction rate as evidence of competence and success in your role as the state’s prosecutor of crimes against the people. It’s not the only metric to look at, but it’s absolutely a relevant metric.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    But then you also run into the issue of the plea deal. A disturbingly high number of cases are plead out - in some states that number approaches 90%. This is more than any other country on earth, and by a huge margin. Many countries completely forbid plea bargaining, and most of those who allow it have strict rules on implementation, oversight and review, where here it is almost entirely purely at a prosecutor's discretion. This falsely pushes conviction rates up, as there are huge swathes of cases where it has been demonstrated that people plead out as the path of least resistance, rather than factual guilt.
  - Deprecate9151 3y ago
    Another commentator touched on how those stats can be misleading, so I want to stress that it is often touted as the only relevant metric. You never see it presented in context of total number of indictments, overturns on appeal, break downs by offense, etc. I'd even argue it's ONLY relevant in the context of other stats. For example, the other issue I didn't see the other commentor speak on is it can lead to UNDER enforcement. It can create an incentive to ignore "complicated" wrong doing, or quickly dropping charges against those who plea bargain to preserve a high conviction rate, even if it's against the public interest. So when you see "conviction rate" it's impossible to know if they're actually good at prosecuting. You can only tell they're good at identifying cases where a conviction is highly likely.

andrei_says_ 3y ago

Exactly. Prison culture is a mirror of our collective psyche. We as a society are gleefully accepting of cruel and unreasonable punishment, with a disturbing level of bloodthirstiness. Similarly, we are accepting of the merciless brutality of Healthcare-as-industry. The unspeakable violence of poverty. We have hardened our hearts in order to see, walk by, live along these, and more, sources of easily preventable suffering. This hardening is making us sick, too. We just somehow can't make the connection.

sershe 3y ago
Poverty is the default state of humanity. There's no unspeakable violence in it. Not to mention that "poverty" in the US is a luxurious lifestyle by worldwide standards (source: I'm an immigrant, and not even from the poorest country by far). It would be really strange if observing the default state of humanity would make humans sick. Ditto for punishment - historically punishments have been much more harsh (the only modern innovation that I'd really support for violent and property crime is dealing with is reducing false convictions; 3-strike type laws deal with that well, I wish they were more widespread). The mental health / politics correlation in the US, especially in recent years, seems to indicate that it's being excessively bleeding-heart that's making "us" sick.

robotnikman 3y ago

It seems to be changing slowly but surely, thankfully. There was a recent post on Reddit made by a prisoner [1] (who was in for life for murdering his sister) who has a locker full of manga, books, MtG cards, and a tablet with minecraft (which he rooted to allow for sideloading of apps). He says he feels very comfortable with the prison life there. I never expected this from a prison in the state of Georgia of all places. This is only one anecdote, but it struck me as surprising when I heard of it. The more we start to focus prisons on rehabilitation instead of just punishment, the better. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/Prison/comments/q96ixg/this_is_what_happens_when_you_incarcerate_a_nerd/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Prison/comments/q96ixg/this_is_what...

jstarfish 3y ago
He's an interesting case. > [...] I was a young kid who thought I was smart and clever and thought I knew people. Prison dunked my head in a cold river of reality. Many people in these prisons have a strong criminal mindset. You learn by fucking up that there are always people who have had it worse, are more clever, stronger, but also more debased, cruel, and uncaring. From this though I have been forced to overcome my autism symptoms. I was thrown off by loud noises, physical contact, and was completely socially inept before I came to prison. Free world society softly caters to autistic kids but in prison you have no choice but to confront your mental health. In short, prison is an adverse environment which can bring out the good, or more often the bad, in people. As a young kid I learned quick that I couldn't rely on any staff or inmates as far as trust goes. I quickly saw I wasn't going to be babied and if I didn't fight for myself and who I was I would be lost. Not everyone becomes a paragon, very few do. [...] Not sure what to make of him. He's very forthcoming about what he did, but evasive about the why.
- strken 3y ago
  I think he genuinely doesn't know, and he isn't being evasive so much as expressing his own confusion. There's video of his confession on YouTube and he just directly admits to murder. The whole thing is in a flat voice and he looks borderline catatonic. It's a really strange case. He arguably belongs in a forensic mental health institution rather than a prison. Or maybe normal prisons should be more like hospitals.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

> There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. A No, you just don't understand the civilization you were born into. It's not a fetish... it's the point. If government promises to punish transgressors, then individuals will refrain from vigilante justice. This punishment is done, because our monkey morality demands it. There are a few secondary goals. We also seek to sequester the offender away from society, so they can't do more injury. We hope (mostly in vain) that public acknowledgement of the punishment acts as a deterrent. > They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it Can't speak for anyone else, but I care about that. It's mostly easy policy fixes too. If prosecutors were barred from using plea bargaining (we don't have to ban it absolutely, limit it to 1% of the cases they see per calendar year), some large chunk of the wrongly-convicted would avoid that fate. Absolutely demolish bail bonding as an industry. Hell, if you really want to fix stuff... Prohibit eyewitness testimony in court, including but especially confessions (they can be useful as investigative leads, but aren't evidence of anything except some really perverse human psychology). Who am I supposed to talk to to get the policy fixes implemented? Maybe it's not the attitude problem you think it is.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> because our human morality demands it. This impulse pre-dates hominids by quite a bit. It's shared with some non-mammalian birds.
sokoloff 3y ago
> Prohibit eyewitness testimony in court The Constitution* enshrines the right to face your accuser in open court. That to me seems proper; why do you propose to eliminate it (what gain do you expect)? If you want to eliminate that right, there is a process for amending the Constitution laid out in the document itself. * Technically, the Sixth Amendment.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  > The Constitution* enshrines the right to face your accuser in open court. Sure. They'll get to see the face. Of course, for the vast majority of crimes, the accuser is the state. > That to me seems proper; why do you propose to eliminate it Because we don't allow dream interpretation, tarot card readings, or other nonsense to be admitted as evidence either. You know how every few months you hear of some black man that has been in prison for rape for 30 years, until DNA evidence exonerates? Behind every one of those convictions there was some sobbing woman on the stands pointing a finger at him. Eyewitness testimony is junk of the lowest grade, below even those tarot cards I joked about. But yeh, they'll get to sit in the same courtroom with any accusers, we just won't let the accusers get up and make up bullshit that they believe are infallible memories. This isn't a constitutional issue. Legislation is absolutely permitted to set standards of evidence.

WD40forRust 3y ago

[dead]