8 ms·

In illinois, a warden tried to fix an abusive prison

105 points by Anon84 3y ago

MiguelHudnandez 3y ago
It seems like bodycams for guards is an appropriate direction to go. People in positions of power should not be able to abuse those in their charge with no repercussions.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions eliminated. They frequently work to keep people in jobs when they really need to be removed from their position, and given the huge amount of power officers have over vulnerable people, that's very much not in our collective best interest. We need to police the police much more strictly.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    >I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions eliminated. There is a particular balance that is needed here... This just shifts the abuse to the typical abuse non-unionized workers receive. Low pay, bad working conditions, dangerous working conditions which leads to more staff rotation and increasing danger in the work environment.
    - zem 3y ago
      and it will in turn lead to situations where bribes are a cop's main source of income
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      Cops and prison guards aren't workers in the sense that labor unions are based on. They are part of the infrastructure that determines who works, where & how, under what conditions, and to whose benefit. I don't mean to dehumanize them but in the mechanism of labor relations their role is more related to coordination and coercion than it is to production. Like if everyone's bosses organized, what they would have isn't a labor union but something else. Police unions use the nomenclature of labor unions but they are actually a different thing.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        " prison guards aren't workers in the sense that labor unions are based on" So, this shows that you have zero idea what the inside of prisons are like for it's employees. A captain level at a jail would tell a corrections officer to go into a pit of angry inmates in a heartbeat, and in general the unions for these officers are what help push the rules to keep said officers from getting killed, or working double shifts. A good thing and a bad thing can happen with a system operating normally.
        giraffe_lady 3y ago
        You're getting twisted up thinking I'm making a value judgement about morality or whatever; it's not about goodness or badness. If a group of business owners coordinates for the benefit of their shared interests, what they have is a business association or chamber of commerce or cartel not a labor union. This is despite the fact that their work individually could be grueling or dangerous, or they have an even worse boss or whatever. Cops and prison guards, like business owners, are part of the system that coordinates who produces value, when and where. But they do not produce that value, and so their organizations aren't labor unions. It's not merely a semantic point either: they have working conditions sure but their goals and tools are different because of this relationship. From a guard's perspective the ideal prison has no prisoners in it; the second best has them drugged and restrained at all times. How would a union reconcile either of these things? And you're right, I've only ever been in a prison as a prisoner. What's your experience being employed in one?
        pixl97 3y ago
        >What's your experience being employed in one A very close family member had a 27 year career as a corrections officer until they retired. But pretty much point you on here is stupid beyond belief. Do you think anyone at any job wants to do anything if the other option was getting paid for doing nothing? The workers at low levels in these organizations are treated like shit, just like every business that has low paid, low skill jobs. Why in the living hell would you think that a corrections officer is "part of the system". I'd say, "Hey go get one of those jobs and you'll see", but it sounds like you're eliminated from the category.
    - storf45 3y ago
      Can you speak more to what balance is needed? Not being able to terminate bad actors severely impacts the ability to improve the situation. The union rep seemed to shift blame throughout out the entire article. From the article: Bergami and Whitmore said they also tried to fire an officer who they saw on video throwing away prisoners’ mail, a possible felony. The agency also overruled them in that decision, they said. The bureau did not respond to allegations of staff destroying mail.“How do you root out the bad apples if you're not allowed to terminate those who have been recommended for termination?” Whitmore said.The two former Thomson officials and a current prison employee said the attitude among many guards was reflected by a group who refused to wear their issued uniforms. These officers opted instead for black T-shirts, many with the union logo or the skull logo of The Punisher — a vigilante comic book character popular with far-right groups. They called themselves “The Black Shirt Mafia.” Also: Seems like they might be looking at lots of staff rotation anyway (union or not): https://www.ourquadcities.com/news/local-news/thomson-prison-staff-shocked-at-loss-of-retention-bonus/ https://www.ourquadcities.com/news/local-news/thomson-prison...
    - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
      The general argument from the pro-unionists is that police are agents of the state and agents of the state aren’t normal workers in need of typical union protections.
      - vkou 3y ago
        I'm a pro-unionist, anti-police, and I don't really buy that argument. All that you need is rule of law, rather than carving out special cases for police unions. Unfortunately, while all animals are equal under the law, but some animals are more equal[1] then others... [1] Still waiting for a cop in my town going 50 over the speed limit, with no lights or sirens running down a woman at a pedestrian crossing to be charged. We're almost coming up to a year anniversary on it!
        lesuorac 3y ago
        I wouldn't recommend making a special case for _police_ unions. Unions shouldn't be allow to have management and non-management in the same union. The guy evaluating your performance (police commissioner) should not be allowed to be in the same union regardless of if you are police or tech.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        Why would the state not abuse its workers? In theory the 'union' portion of representation should be codified into the rules the departments are under, but they are not. Prisons will gladly have you work double shifts where they are allowed even though it's insanely dangerous.
- WD40ForRust2 3y ago
  [dead]
- nitwit005 3y ago
  The article documents them ignoring policy on restraints on video, and facing no consequences, so presumably that will do nothing. You can't fix things if they'll overrule any suggestion to fire people.
  - bhelkey 3y ago
    > One of the officers Bergami said he tried to fire was named in two separate lawsuits alleging he slammed two prisoners’ faces into the concrete floor, knocking one unconscious, according to court records. Neither person suing had an attorney, and both cases were dismissed. At the very least, video evidence would have helped in lawsuits.
louwrentius 3y ago
If you can’t fire people who misbehave: 1. You are not in charge 2. The problems are with upper management specifically condoning the behavior
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  The biggest challenge with improving systems such as corrections is sometimes "upper management" is "the public" (in the form of voters who will sack anyone who tries to spend public money to improve circumstances because the voters simply believe "fuck criminals").
Crunchified 3y ago
Good article, but I wonder why the photo of Thomson Correctional Center appears to show it to be an Illinois Department of Corrections prison rather than a federal prison?
- tomjakubowski 3y ago
  The federal government bought the prison from Illinois in 2012. Must be an old photo
- alwaysrunning 3y ago
  I am assuming it's an old picture? fm Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Thomson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Th... "In October 2012, the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) purchased Thomson Correctional Center from the State of Illinois for $165 million."
autoexec 3y ago
Our prison system is inhumane and our treatment of prisoners is torture. I don't doubt there will be a lot of resistance to cleaning the system up because basically everyone involved is guilty and won't like the idea of suddenly being vulnerable to being held accountable for what they've been doing. There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. A disturbingly high number of people want criminals to go to prison and get beaten and raped. They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it as long it isn't them personally and so long as at least some people they feel "deserve it" are being tortured. I'd like to think that those attitudes will change and eventually we'll start improving things, but I don't see it happening any time soon.
- alwaysrunning 3y ago
  Not to mention their cut in untaxed income should they stop smuggling contraband for gangs.
- manicennui 3y ago
  They also don't think about what happens to these people when they are eventually released.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. Go to the movies. Sex is such a taboo that if it's depicted in detail it is unfit for adult theaters. Maiming and killing is ok even for children. Our morals are upside down. And constantly being reinforced to stay that way.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas, and the prisons there are most definitely not in any way similar. I believe it is part of the US mentality. Like the SUV, guns, "Freedom", etc. Hollywood portray the US, not the other way around.
    - autoexec 3y ago
unethical_ban 3y ago
>“the vast majority of our employees are hardworking, ethical, diligent corrections professionals, who act with integrity daily and want those engaging in misconduct to be held accountable.” In the career of prison guard, the ideal would be 100% integrity. I believe unions have their issues, but that in a "market" career, such as the trades or retail or service workers, the good outweighs the bad. Unions for police and prison guards are 100% a mafia and they should not be tolerated. It needs to be much easier to fire cops.
- Crunchified 3y ago
  How about banning unions for any government employees? These employees should be held accountable only to the public and its elected representatives.
  - gowld 3y ago
    There are many aspects of a union. Employees deserve a unified voice. What they don't deserve is to hold the system hostage with threats after they agree to work.
    - unethical_ban 3y ago
      That's literally the only leverage a union has. If a union can't strike, then it means nothing for them to have a voice.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    While other public sectors can definitely have an impact on public safety, I don't believe there is the threat of violence or endangerment to the public that is so prevalent in policing. Therefore I'm /less/ concerned about teachers, fire, post office, air traffic, etc. even though they have their issues.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Unions are a right, not a privilege, and if the police and prison guards are racist, a good union representing them would also be racist. We need to stop catering to them, however, and we need to make it those jobs fit for someone other than racists of fascists to do. But you can't create and uphold a racist system, and put all the responsibility on the hands needed to carry out the goals of that system. These horrible police abuses and prison abuses are usually being carried out under the oversight of hundreds of Democratic (often black) mayors and governors who love a docile and quiet minority population, but not the blame for the violent pacification that it takes to create and preserve one. > It needs to be much easier to fire cops. Unions don't make the rules, politicians doing what their donors say do. Giving the police unions what they want is a choice. Other unions don't get what they want.
ilovetux 3y ago
I can understand why a person might commit an act of abuse. Anger, fetish, frustration it all makes a sort of sense, but what I cannot comprehend is why leadership was actively preventing investigations and sanctions. It makes no sense unless it is a criminal organization profiting off of the abuse. These people need consequences.
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  Why would I try to investigate or sanction anyone? Get up off my ass, spend my limited money, just to make myself look like a bad boss?
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Leadership are abusers too and none of them want any more scrutiny at their facility. The entire motivation for the prison system is sadistic and the people involved don’t care about the human beings locked inside.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  It is an organization, by definition. It's a unit of government. This organization has revenue (budgeted to it). If they perform poorly, the budget might be lowered next year. More correctly, if they are perceived to perform poorly, their budget drops. But they were in control of the mechanisms by which their performance is perceived. > These people need consequences. If you put people (individually or as a group) into an unpleasant circumstance, and demand performance from them at odds with the unpleasantness of the circumstance, you run into a problem. You're no longer able to insist they experience consequences for failure. When you attempt that, if they're allowed to quit, they just quit. And I know you weren't suggesting we press them into slavery. Consequences only work when they have no leverage.
  - ilovetux 3y ago
    I am not talking about consequences for failure. I am talking about consequences for crimes. Let them quit. They were trying to fire them anyway. They shouldn't even have their jobs at this point anyway...they should be in prison.
flenserboy 3y ago
Guards, police, umpires — all near-impossible to make get in line, much less get rid of. There's a common denominator here.
WD40forRust 3y ago
[dead]
sam345 3y ago
I agree that many prisons need reform. Many times they are a cess pool of abuse and inhumane treatment, drug running, and criminal enterprise training, with many prisoners and staff participating. But as I'm reading this I ask myself why don't they just fire the guards. And then I thought well there is probably a union. And yes of course I then read there is. Puzzle solved. Unions many times over time create an unworkable unreformable bureaucracy that prevents reform. Particularly in governmental and semi-governmental organizations in which unions become political machines which control who gets elected as their counterparties on the next contract negotiations, successfully gaming the negotiations and guaranteeing their survival. See public schools - watch the movie Waiting for Superman https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/

105 points by Anon84 3y ago

It seems like bodycams for guards is an appropriate direction to go. People in positions of power should not be able to abuse those in their charge with no repercussions.

meepmorp 3y ago
I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions eliminated. They frequently work to keep people in jobs when they really need to be removed from their position, and given the huge amount of power officers have over vulnerable people, that's very much not in our collective best interest. We need to police the police much more strictly.
- pixl97 3y ago
  >I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions eliminated. There is a particular balance that is needed here... This just shifts the abuse to the typical abuse non-unionized workers receive. Low pay, bad working conditions, dangerous working conditions which leads to more staff rotation and increasing danger in the work environment.
  - zem 3y ago
    and it will in turn lead to situations where bribes are a cop's main source of income
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Cops and prison guards aren't workers in the sense that labor unions are based on. They are part of the infrastructure that determines who works, where & how, under what conditions, and to whose benefit. I don't mean to dehumanize them but in the mechanism of labor relations their role is more related to coordination and coercion than it is to production. Like if everyone's bosses organized, what they would have isn't a labor union but something else. Police unions use the nomenclature of labor unions but they are actually a different thing.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      " prison guards aren't workers in the sense that labor unions are based on" So, this shows that you have zero idea what the inside of prisons are like for it's employees. A captain level at a jail would tell a corrections officer to go into a pit of angry inmates in a heartbeat, and in general the unions for these officers are what help push the rules to keep said officers from getting killed, or working double shifts. A good thing and a bad thing can happen with a system operating normally.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        You're getting twisted up thinking I'm making a value judgement about morality or whatever; it's not about goodness or badness. If a group of business owners coordinates for the benefit of their shared interests, what they have is a business association or chamber of commerce or cartel not a labor union. This is despite the fact that their work individually could be grueling or dangerous, or they have an even worse boss or whatever. Cops and prison guards, like business owners, are part of the system that coordinates who produces value, when and where. But they do not produce that value, and so their organizations aren't labor unions. It's not merely a semantic point either: they have working conditions sure but their goals and tools are different because of this relationship. From a guard's perspective the ideal prison has no prisoners in it; the second best has them drugged and restrained at all times. How would a union reconcile either of these things? And you're right, I've only ever been in a prison as a prisoner. What's your experience being employed in one?
        pixl97 3y ago
        >What's your experience being employed in one A very close family member had a 27 year career as a corrections officer until they retired. But pretty much point you on here is stupid beyond belief. Do you think anyone at any job wants to do anything if the other option was getting paid for doing nothing? The workers at low levels in these organizations are treated like shit, just like every business that has low paid, low skill jobs. Why in the living hell would you think that a corrections officer is "part of the system". I'd say, "Hey go get one of those jobs and you'll see", but it sounds like you're eliminated from the category.
  - storf45 3y ago
    Can you speak more to what balance is needed? Not being able to terminate bad actors severely impacts the ability to improve the situation. The union rep seemed to shift blame throughout out the entire article. From the article: Bergami and Whitmore said they also tried to fire an officer who they saw on video throwing away prisoners’ mail, a possible felony. The agency also overruled them in that decision, they said. The bureau did not respond to allegations of staff destroying mail.“How do you root out the bad apples if you're not allowed to terminate those who have been recommended for termination?” Whitmore said.The two former Thomson officials and a current prison employee said the attitude among many guards was reflected by a group who refused to wear their issued uniforms. These officers opted instead for black T-shirts, many with the union logo or the skull logo of The Punisher — a vigilante comic book character popular with far-right groups. They called themselves “The Black Shirt Mafia.” Also: Seems like they might be looking at lots of staff rotation anyway (union or not): https://www.ourquadcities.com/news/local-news/thomson-prison-staff-shocked-at-loss-of-retention-bonus/ https://www.ourquadcities.com/news/local-news/thomson-prison...
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    The general argument from the pro-unionists is that police are agents of the state and agents of the state aren’t normal workers in need of typical union protections.
    - vkou 3y ago
      I'm a pro-unionist, anti-police, and I don't really buy that argument. All that you need is rule of law, rather than carving out special cases for police unions. Unfortunately, while all animals are equal under the law, but some animals are more equal[1] then others... [1] Still waiting for a cop in my town going 50 over the speed limit, with no lights or sirens running down a woman at a pedestrian crossing to be charged. We're almost coming up to a year anniversary on it!
      - lesuorac 3y ago
        I wouldn't recommend making a special case for _police_ unions. Unions shouldn't be allow to have management and non-management in the same union. The guy evaluating your performance (police commissioner) should not be allowed to be in the same union regardless of if you are police or tech.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      Why would the state not abuse its workers? In theory the 'union' portion of representation should be codified into the rules the departments are under, but they are not. Prisons will gladly have you work double shifts where they are allowed even though it's insanely dangerous.
WD40ForRust2 3y ago
[dead]
nitwit005 3y ago
The article documents them ignoring policy on restraints on video, and facing no consequences, so presumably that will do nothing. You can't fix things if they'll overrule any suggestion to fire people.
- bhelkey 3y ago
  > One of the officers Bergami said he tried to fire was named in two separate lawsuits alleging he slammed two prisoners’ faces into the concrete floor, knocking one unconscious, according to court records. Neither person suing had an attorney, and both cases were dismissed. At the very least, video evidence would have helped in lawsuits.

louwrentius 3y ago

If you can’t fire people who misbehave: 1. You are not in charge 2. The problems are with upper management specifically condoning the behavior

shadowgovt 3y ago
The biggest challenge with improving systems such as corrections is sometimes "upper management" is "the public" (in the form of voters who will sack anyone who tries to spend public money to improve circumstances because the voters simply believe "fuck criminals").

Crunchified 3y ago

Good article, but I wonder why the photo of Thomson Correctional Center appears to show it to be an Illinois Department of Corrections prison rather than a federal prison?

tomjakubowski 3y ago
The federal government bought the prison from Illinois in 2012. Must be an old photo
alwaysrunning 3y ago
I am assuming it's an old picture? fm Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Thomson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Th... "In October 2012, the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) purchased Thomson Correctional Center from the State of Illinois for $165 million."

autoexec 3y ago

Our prison system is inhumane and our treatment of prisoners is torture. I don't doubt there will be a lot of resistance to cleaning the system up because basically everyone involved is guilty and won't like the idea of suddenly being vulnerable to being held accountable for what they've been doing. There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. A disturbingly high number of people want criminals to go to prison and get beaten and raped. They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it as long it isn't them personally and so long as at least some people they feel "deserve it" are being tortured. I'd like to think that those attitudes will change and eventually we'll start improving things, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

alwaysrunning 3y ago
Not to mention their cut in untaxed income should they stop smuggling contraband for gangs.
manicennui 3y ago
They also don't think about what happens to these people when they are eventually released.
drewcoo 3y ago
> There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes punishment. Go to the movies. Sex is such a taboo that if it's depicted in detail it is unfit for adult theaters. Maiming and killing is ok even for children. Our morals are upside down. And constantly being reinforced to stay that way.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas, and the prisons there are most definitely not in any way similar. I believe it is part of the US mentality. Like the SUV, guns, "Freedom", etc. Hollywood portray the US, not the other way around.
  - autoexec 3y ago

unethical_ban 3y ago

>“the vast majority of our employees are hardworking, ethical, diligent corrections professionals, who act with integrity daily and want those engaging in misconduct to be held accountable.” In the career of prison guard, the ideal would be 100% integrity. I believe unions have their issues, but that in a "market" career, such as the trades or retail or service workers, the good outweighs the bad. Unions for police and prison guards are 100% a mafia and they should not be tolerated. It needs to be much easier to fire cops.

Crunchified 3y ago
How about banning unions for any government employees? These employees should be held accountable only to the public and its elected representatives.
- gowld 3y ago
  There are many aspects of a union. Employees deserve a unified voice. What they don't deserve is to hold the system hostage with threats after they agree to work.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    That's literally the only leverage a union has. If a union can't strike, then it means nothing for them to have a voice.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  While other public sectors can definitely have an impact on public safety, I don't believe there is the threat of violence or endangerment to the public that is so prevalent in policing. Therefore I'm /less/ concerned about teachers, fire, post office, air traffic, etc. even though they have their issues.
pessimizer 3y ago
Unions are a right, not a privilege, and if the police and prison guards are racist, a good union representing them would also be racist. We need to stop catering to them, however, and we need to make it those jobs fit for someone other than racists of fascists to do. But you can't create and uphold a racist system, and put all the responsibility on the hands needed to carry out the goals of that system. These horrible police abuses and prison abuses are usually being carried out under the oversight of hundreds of Democratic (often black) mayors and governors who love a docile and quiet minority population, but not the blame for the violent pacification that it takes to create and preserve one. > It needs to be much easier to fire cops. Unions don't make the rules, politicians doing what their donors say do. Giving the police unions what they want is a choice. Other unions don't get what they want.

ilovetux 3y ago

I can understand why a person might commit an act of abuse. Anger, fetish, frustration it all makes a sort of sense, but what I cannot comprehend is why leadership was actively preventing investigations and sanctions. It makes no sense unless it is a criminal organization profiting off of the abuse. These people need consequences.

cool_dude85 3y ago
Why would I try to investigate or sanction anyone? Get up off my ass, spend my limited money, just to make myself look like a bad boss?
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Leadership are abusers too and none of them want any more scrutiny at their facility. The entire motivation for the prison system is sadistic and the people involved don’t care about the human beings locked inside.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
It is an organization, by definition. It's a unit of government. This organization has revenue (budgeted to it). If they perform poorly, the budget might be lowered next year. More correctly, if they are perceived to perform poorly, their budget drops. But they were in control of the mechanisms by which their performance is perceived. > These people need consequences. If you put people (individually or as a group) into an unpleasant circumstance, and demand performance from them at odds with the unpleasantness of the circumstance, you run into a problem. You're no longer able to insist they experience consequences for failure. When you attempt that, if they're allowed to quit, they just quit. And I know you weren't suggesting we press them into slavery. Consequences only work when they have no leverage.
- ilovetux 3y ago
  I am not talking about consequences for failure. I am talking about consequences for crimes. Let them quit. They were trying to fire them anyway. They shouldn't even have their jobs at this point anyway...they should be in prison.

flenserboy 3y ago

Guards, police, umpires — all near-impossible to make get in line, much less get rid of. There's a common denominator here.

WD40forRust 3y ago

[dead]

sam345 3y ago

I agree that many prisons need reform. Many times they are a cess pool of abuse and inhumane treatment, drug running, and criminal enterprise training, with many prisoners and staff participating. But as I'm reading this I ask myself why don't they just fire the guards. And then I thought well there is probably a union. And yes of course I then read there is. Puzzle solved. Unions many times over time create an unworkable unreformable bureaucracy that prevents reform. Particularly in governmental and semi-governmental organizations in which unions become political machines which control who gets elected as their counterparties on the next contract negotiations, successfully gaming the negotiations and guaranteeing their survival. See public schools - watch the movie Waiting for Superman https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/