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It's been good for me; I think it'll be great soon. AMD support on Linux is the biggest issue. The upgrade experience from the Intel 12th gen to a Ryzen 5 took

It's been good for me; I think it'll be great soon. AMD support on Linux is the biggest issue. The upgrade experience from the Intel 12th gen to a Ryzen 5 took about a half-hour, doing only the mainboard and no display or hinge upgrades, and I was already familiar with the internals from assembling it as a DIY. It's not trivially easy, and there were a few frustrating moments that aren't unique to the Framework (ok, I'm just talking about the goddamned wifi antenna connections), but I've had a harder time upgrading or repairing just the RAM or storage on some ultrathin laptops. The firmware limitations on ports imposed by AMD are frustrating in concept but less so in practice; for me it meant just swapping expansion cards from the rear slots to the front slots. I can imagine for people who had very specific setups it could be more disruptive. But the OS experience was sloppy, and I'm not surprised that Phoronix waited until Fedora 39 left beta. AMD GPU issues necessitated kernel patches that wouldn't land in Fedora 38 by launch, and I still hit GPU-related memalloc issues with the updated kernel _and_ the BIOS update that Phoronix also waited for.[1] I've also hit the wake-while-lid-closed problems specific to the AMD mainboard that have onerous udev workarounds.[2] The weird power supply limitations for using the board standalone, requiring at least a 100W supply for still less than full performance unless any battery is attached, also limits the flexibility that makes these boards attractive outside of the laptop case, whether bought for that intent or as a post-upgrade reuse. 1: https://community.frame.work/t/tracking-graphical-corruption-in-fedora-39-amd-3-03-bios/39073/65 https://community.frame.work/t/tracking-graphical-corruption... 2: https://community.frame.work/t/tracking-framework-amd-ryzen-7040-series-lid-wakeup-behavior-feedback/39128 https://community.frame.work/t/tracking-framework-amd-ryzen-...

binkHN 3y ago
Don't feel too bad; I too am on the latest AMD 7040 hotness via a ThinkPad and the BIOS here is garbage too as it relates to Linux.
nicolaslem 3y ago
> AMD support on Linux is the biggest issue. From my experience, it takes about a year between the time AMD hardware is generally available to the public and the time Linux support for it is rock solid. I got one of the first 6800U laptops available and at the beginning it was rough, crashing often for no reasons. Slowly, each new kernel or firmware version fixed more and more things until one day, about a year later, all issues were gone.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  I bought my Asus 1215B back in 2009, naturally it had the AMD proprietary driver back then, it took until Ubuntu 22.04 LTS for me to get OpenGL 4.1 support back, now with the open source driver. It had been downgraded to OpenGL 3.3 since Ubuntu decided to drop the proprietary driver.
phkahler 3y ago
>> The weird power supply limitations for using the board standalone, requiring at least a 100W supply for still less than full performance unless any battery is attached, also limits the flexibility What? I've been thinking about a VISA mounted PC on the back of my TV. This board seems like a great idea, but 100W for a laptop board? Why? Are there some transients that need more than some caps can supply?
- starkparker 3y ago
  There are community threads with details — there are more things to worry about than just the power supply, but it's the biggest and weirdest one. The AMD boards also don't ship with a RTC battery for regulatory reasons, and they use a two-pin connector instead of a bare coin cell. There are further port limitations for connecting a display when no OS is installed or the mainboard wasn't initialized in the laptop case. https://community.frame.work/t/recommended-watts-for-amd-coolermaster-setup/38317 https://community.frame.work/t/recommended-watts-for-amd-coo... https://community.frame.work/t/resolved-mainboard-standalone-w-o-framework-laptop-amd-7040-5-7640u/39301/7 https://community.frame.work/t/resolved-mainboard-standalone... https://community.frame.work/t/amd-board-solely-in-the-coolermaster-case/38608 https://community.frame.work/t/amd-board-solely-in-the-coole... The Intel boards also recommended 100W if there's no battery; the AMD issue is that _even with_ a 100W supply, performance is capped, and with a smaller power supply you might not be able to boot at all.
xd1936 3y ago
I currently have a 12th Gen Intel Framework. How much of an improvement in everyday use do you see?
- starkparker 3y ago
  Most of the improvement is in gaming and GPU-intensive work, which is why I upgraded. Baldur's Gate 3 via Steam/Proton at 1240p went from ~30 fps with settings cranked down on Intel to 40-60 at high/ultra. I didn't upgrade the battery and the battery life is similar (as in, not great; about 4-5 hours of coding while occasionally maxing all cores, 2 hours or less of sustained gaming), but it's also hard to judge because of all the power/wake problems while in sleep. I've gotten in the habit of just shutting it down instead. Blender was "usable" on Intel but I can work comfortably with much bigger scenes on the AMD board. I had 32GB RAM on both boards, going from DDR4 to DDR5 by necessity. Anecdotally, non-GPU single/multi-core stuff (for me, typically GIS-related functions) feels better but not by as huge of a leap.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    Wow, that's fantastic. I have the 12th-gen board (bought it, along with the full Framework laptop, when they started offering it), and gaming perf is ok for what I play, but not great. There are a few other issues (like severe spurious thermal throttling) that make gaming even harder (not great to be playing a FPS and suddenly all 20 cores are locked to 400MHz and stay that way for 15 minutes for no reason). I get shit battery life (~3 hours), probably because I have 30 Firefox windows open with a total of 2k tabs or so (my fault, I should clean it up), so at least one core is at 25% or so all the time, or worse. And of course compiling things or watching video drags that down real fast. I can't justify another upgrade after having this one for only a year (especially since I'll need new RAM), but maybe I'll think about an AMD board in 2025 or so.
    - starkparker 3y ago
      It still won't replace my 2021 ROG G14 with a RTX 3060 and Win11 as my "main gaming" laptop, but it's very nice when I'm traveling to use the same laptop for work and play. Slower strategy games like BG3 on a high-res 3:2 display are a revelation, too, when the UI adapts well.
jamesdutc 3y ago
I am very surprised to hear reports of poor Linux support for AMD devices. I recently purchased a GPD Win Max 2 [1] and a GPD Win 4 [2] for work. Both devices are AMD 7840U with Radeon 780M (and 64 GiB RAM at 6400 MT/s since I saw what appeared to be instability at 7500 MT/s.) I installed Archlinux on both and the support has been very solid with the `linux-lts` kernel and only one kernel flag (`amd_pstate=guided`.) The following work: touchscreen; suspend (s2idle, which correctly enters S0ix state giving ≥100h battery life suspended but requiring I disable entries in `/proc/acpi/wakeup`); audio; media keys; game controls; wifi; Bluetooth; USB; SecureBoot (with `systemd-boot`); webcam (available only on Win Max 2.) The TPM2 works, but I haven't done anything with it yet (and it's an fTPM.) Battery life is quite good (8~10h with the `acpi-cpufreq` `powersave` governor.) If I dial down the TDP, I can eke out even more battery life than that. If I dial it up to performance, I get 1~2h of battery life (and the exhaust from the fan port runs very hot.) I plan to try the `amd_pstate` governor (kernel flag `amd_pstate=active`) once support is available in the LTS kernel, though I like being able to control TDP via the CLI with AUR packages like `ryzenadj-git`. (This sounds like a lot of work, but I have a short shell script where I dialed in the right `cpupower` and `ryzenadj-git` commands optimal for my use.) Hibernate works perfectly on the Win 4; I haven't tested it on the Win Max 2 (since s2idle works so well!) On the Win 4, I can't get `xrandr` modes at anything other than native resolution (1920×1080) to work, but I am content with scaling via `xrandr --scale-from`. All resolutions display properly on the Win Max 2. Rotation works perfectly on both devices, but I rotate manually (and I haven't bothered to see if there is a gyroscope sensor.) There is minimal to no screen tearing. The displays present to the OS as landscape (i.e., rotation is not necessary from the Linux console.) The only hardware that outright doesn't work are the fingerprint readers (but I believe Linux support for fingerprint readers is limited to very few devices.) In short, my recent experience with AMD 7840U/Radeon 780M has been nothing short of amazing, and these devices have been an absolute pleasure to use. [1] https://www.gpd.hk/gpdwinmax2 https://www.gpd.hk/gpdwinmax2 [2] https://gpd.hk/gpdwin4 https://gpd.hk/gpdwin4 [3] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ryzenadj-git https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ryzenadj-git
- starkparker 3y ago
  Framework's been transparent through the process about firmware issues being part of their mainboard development. A lot of their problems are specific to the intersection of their expansion slot/USB-C port capabilities, particularly power draw and PD/DP capabilities, and AMD's firmware for mainboard components. I'm not surprised that GPDs have a more solid experience as they're not expected to be as flexible. And I want to emphasize that the "support" as in Framework responding to and shipping fixes has been good. The "support" as in the hardware working consistently, particularly in Linux and without distro-specific workarounds, has had holes which sound common enough outside of Framework devices that I'd wager the GPDs are the exception more than the rule. I'll say at least that the Framework's fingerprint reader and display settings Just Worked through the upgrade.
mschuster91 3y ago
> The weird power supply limitations for using the board standalone, requiring at least a 100W supply for still less than full performance unless any battery is attached, also limits the flexibility that makes these boards attractive outside of the laptop case, whether bought for that intent or as a post-upgrade reuse. That's because Framework doesn't want to risk getting liable for damaged power supplies. With a battery, the power management circuitry can make sure that, bar an outright shortcut, the load on the PSU will not ever be more than the allowed power. Without it, there is no buffer.
- starkparker 3y ago
  You're not wrong, but the problem is a difference in capability combined with a performance cap that you can't power-scale your way out of. The 100W suggestion is the same as the Intel board, though the Intel board can run standalone on the stock 60W supply without a battery by staying in a lower-wattage mode. The 100W problem specific to AMD is the inability to boot at all without a battery at under 100W, and not being able to hit max stock TDP with a 100W or greater supply unless a battery is also installed — even if it never draws from it. From Framework's emails to early-batch buyers on the subject: > Note that performance will currently be limited without the battery present. We’re working with AMD and our manufacturing partner Compal to tune and improve this. In the meantime, we recommend using a 100W USB-C power adapter to mitigate some of the performance reduction.
dizhn 3y ago
Wifi antenna. Damn. Align the connector with the socket. Push it forward/up then press down into the socket. I did a replacement once and I was about to break it until I saw a few videos and a text description of it.
nbf_1995 3y ago
I've also experienced the GPU issues and sleep issues, but for me, these were solved by updating to bios v3.03
KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
I think the bigger problem for the community is that the M3 absolutely spanks it in performance. https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_7_7840u-vs-apple_m3_max_16_cpu_40_gpu https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_7_7840u-... It's not just a matter of poor drivers and not being able to wake up from sleep. You typical Mac lasts for tens of hours on battery and runs faster than Intel/AMD's flagship laptop grade processors. This is a big deal and if the x64 hardware people don't up their game soon, the Linux on desktop community will be hurt as users would move to the Apple ecosystem, despite the non-free nature. The gap has grown too big.
- rstuart4133 3y ago
  > the Linux on desktop community will be hurt as users would move to the Apple ecosystem, despite the non-free nature. That's an odd thing to say given given GNU/Linux runs on more architectures than any other OS. For example there is a Chromebook, which is (or is slated to become?) a skin over GNU/Linux. That includes using Wayland. If you want access to the full GNU/Linux stack, Chromebook's provide Crostini. Your point about Apple pulling off a step change with the M series is correct of course, and Asahi Linux notwithstanding we don't have full access to it. But other hardware vendors see that as an opportunity - if they can produce an equivalent they can take advantage of the fact that Apple produces a premium product most of the world doesn't want to pay for. When they do, GNU/Linux users will be among the early adopters. It's difficult to see how be GNU/Linux could get left behind. AMD/Intel on the other hand are likely shitting themselves. They've now had years to catch up, but has been very little sign of it. That mountain of technical debt created by the necessity of backward compatibility is proving very hard to move. The are starting to look like dinosaurs that are pretty safe in their niche, but the world has moved on and that niche is shrinking.
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
    > That's an odd thing to say given given GNU/Linux runs on more architectures than any other OS. So? Any other architecture that outperforms the M3 on both efficiency and power?
zerocrates 3y ago
Just did my own swap yesterday: I was lazy (practical?) and just kept the Intel wifi chip I had already so I wouldn't have to redo the antenna connections. I'm on Ubuntu 23.10 and I think just the pretty new kernel, plus my Framework board being a later build with the newer firmware, meant I dodged any graphics issues (at least any I'd have immediately noticed).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

binkHN 3y ago

Don't feel too bad; I too am on the latest AMD 7040 hotness via a ThinkPad and the BIOS here is garbage too as it relates to Linux.

nicolaslem 3y ago

> AMD support on Linux is the biggest issue. From my experience, it takes about a year between the time AMD hardware is generally available to the public and the time Linux support for it is rock solid. I got one of the first 6800U laptops available and at the beginning it was rough, crashing often for no reasons. Slowly, each new kernel or firmware version fixed more and more things until one day, about a year later, all issues were gone.

pjmlp 3y ago
I bought my Asus 1215B back in 2009, naturally it had the AMD proprietary driver back then, it took until Ubuntu 22.04 LTS for me to get OpenGL 4.1 support back, now with the open source driver. It had been downgraded to OpenGL 3.3 since Ubuntu decided to drop the proprietary driver.

phkahler 3y ago

>> The weird power supply limitations for using the board standalone, requiring at least a 100W supply for still less than full performance unless any battery is attached, also limits the flexibility What? I've been thinking about a VISA mounted PC on the back of my TV. This board seems like a great idea, but 100W for a laptop board? Why? Are there some transients that need more than some caps can supply?

starkparker 3y ago
There are community threads with details — there are more things to worry about than just the power supply, but it's the biggest and weirdest one. The AMD boards also don't ship with a RTC battery for regulatory reasons, and they use a two-pin connector instead of a bare coin cell. There are further port limitations for connecting a display when no OS is installed or the mainboard wasn't initialized in the laptop case. https://community.frame.work/t/recommended-watts-for-amd-coolermaster-setup/38317 https://community.frame.work/t/recommended-watts-for-amd-coo... https://community.frame.work/t/resolved-mainboard-standalone-w-o-framework-laptop-amd-7040-5-7640u/39301/7 https://community.frame.work/t/resolved-mainboard-standalone... https://community.frame.work/t/amd-board-solely-in-the-coolermaster-case/38608 https://community.frame.work/t/amd-board-solely-in-the-coole... The Intel boards also recommended 100W if there's no battery; the AMD issue is that _even with_ a 100W supply, performance is capped, and with a smaller power supply you might not be able to boot at all.

xd1936 3y ago

I currently have a 12th Gen Intel Framework. How much of an improvement in everyday use do you see?

starkparker 3y ago
Most of the improvement is in gaming and GPU-intensive work, which is why I upgraded. Baldur's Gate 3 via Steam/Proton at 1240p went from ~30 fps with settings cranked down on Intel to 40-60 at high/ultra. I didn't upgrade the battery and the battery life is similar (as in, not great; about 4-5 hours of coding while occasionally maxing all cores, 2 hours or less of sustained gaming), but it's also hard to judge because of all the power/wake problems while in sleep. I've gotten in the habit of just shutting it down instead. Blender was "usable" on Intel but I can work comfortably with much bigger scenes on the AMD board. I had 32GB RAM on both boards, going from DDR4 to DDR5 by necessity. Anecdotally, non-GPU single/multi-core stuff (for me, typically GIS-related functions) feels better but not by as huge of a leap.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Wow, that's fantastic. I have the 12th-gen board (bought it, along with the full Framework laptop, when they started offering it), and gaming perf is ok for what I play, but not great. There are a few other issues (like severe spurious thermal throttling) that make gaming even harder (not great to be playing a FPS and suddenly all 20 cores are locked to 400MHz and stay that way for 15 minutes for no reason). I get shit battery life (~3 hours), probably because I have 30 Firefox windows open with a total of 2k tabs or so (my fault, I should clean it up), so at least one core is at 25% or so all the time, or worse. And of course compiling things or watching video drags that down real fast. I can't justify another upgrade after having this one for only a year (especially since I'll need new RAM), but maybe I'll think about an AMD board in 2025 or so.
  - starkparker 3y ago
    It still won't replace my 2021 ROG G14 with a RTX 3060 and Win11 as my "main gaming" laptop, but it's very nice when I'm traveling to use the same laptop for work and play. Slower strategy games like BG3 on a high-res 3:2 display are a revelation, too, when the UI adapts well.

jamesdutc 3y ago

I am very surprised to hear reports of poor Linux support for AMD devices. I recently purchased a GPD Win Max 2 [1] and a GPD Win 4 [2] for work. Both devices are AMD 7840U with Radeon 780M (and 64 GiB RAM at 6400 MT/s since I saw what appeared to be instability at 7500 MT/s.) I installed Archlinux on both and the support has been very solid with the `linux-lts` kernel and only one kernel flag (`amd_pstate=guided`.) The following work: touchscreen; suspend (s2idle, which correctly enters S0ix state giving ≥100h battery life suspended but requiring I disable entries in `/proc/acpi/wakeup`); audio; media keys; game controls; wifi; Bluetooth; USB; SecureBoot (with `systemd-boot`); webcam (available only on Win Max 2.) The TPM2 works, but I haven't done anything with it yet (and it's an fTPM.) Battery life is quite good (8~10h with the `acpi-cpufreq` `powersave` governor.) If I dial down the TDP, I can eke out even more battery life than that. If I dial it up to performance, I get 1~2h of battery life (and the exhaust from the fan port runs very hot.) I plan to try the `amd_pstate` governor (kernel flag `amd_pstate=active`) once support is available in the LTS kernel, though I like being able to control TDP via the CLI with AUR packages like `ryzenadj-git`. (This sounds like a lot of work, but I have a short shell script where I dialed in the right `cpupower` and `ryzenadj-git` commands optimal for my use.) Hibernate works perfectly on the Win 4; I haven't tested it on the Win Max 2 (since s2idle works so well!) On the Win 4, I can't get `xrandr` modes at anything other than native resolution (1920×1080) to work, but I am content with scaling via `xrandr --scale-from`. All resolutions display properly on the Win Max 2. Rotation works perfectly on both devices, but I rotate manually (and I haven't bothered to see if there is a gyroscope sensor.) There is minimal to no screen tearing. The displays present to the OS as landscape (i.e., rotation is not necessary from the Linux console.) The only hardware that outright doesn't work are the fingerprint readers (but I believe Linux support for fingerprint readers is limited to very few devices.) In short, my recent experience with AMD 7840U/Radeon 780M has been nothing short of amazing, and these devices have been an absolute pleasure to use. [1] https://www.gpd.hk/gpdwinmax2 https://www.gpd.hk/gpdwinmax2 [2] https://gpd.hk/gpdwin4 https://gpd.hk/gpdwin4 [3] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ryzenadj-git https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ryzenadj-git

starkparker 3y ago
Framework's been transparent through the process about firmware issues being part of their mainboard development. A lot of their problems are specific to the intersection of their expansion slot/USB-C port capabilities, particularly power draw and PD/DP capabilities, and AMD's firmware for mainboard components. I'm not surprised that GPDs have a more solid experience as they're not expected to be as flexible. And I want to emphasize that the "support" as in Framework responding to and shipping fixes has been good. The "support" as in the hardware working consistently, particularly in Linux and without distro-specific workarounds, has had holes which sound common enough outside of Framework devices that I'd wager the GPDs are the exception more than the rule. I'll say at least that the Framework's fingerprint reader and display settings Just Worked through the upgrade.

mschuster91 3y ago

> The weird power supply limitations for using the board standalone, requiring at least a 100W supply for still less than full performance unless any battery is attached, also limits the flexibility that makes these boards attractive outside of the laptop case, whether bought for that intent or as a post-upgrade reuse. That's because Framework doesn't want to risk getting liable for damaged power supplies. With a battery, the power management circuitry can make sure that, bar an outright shortcut, the load on the PSU will not ever be more than the allowed power. Without it, there is no buffer.

starkparker 3y ago
You're not wrong, but the problem is a difference in capability combined with a performance cap that you can't power-scale your way out of. The 100W suggestion is the same as the Intel board, though the Intel board can run standalone on the stock 60W supply without a battery by staying in a lower-wattage mode. The 100W problem specific to AMD is the inability to boot at all without a battery at under 100W, and not being able to hit max stock TDP with a 100W or greater supply unless a battery is also installed — even if it never draws from it. From Framework's emails to early-batch buyers on the subject: > Note that performance will currently be limited without the battery present. We’re working with AMD and our manufacturing partner Compal to tune and improve this. In the meantime, we recommend using a 100W USB-C power adapter to mitigate some of the performance reduction.

dizhn 3y ago

Wifi antenna. Damn. Align the connector with the socket. Push it forward/up then press down into the socket. I did a replacement once and I was about to break it until I saw a few videos and a text description of it.

nbf_1995 3y ago

I've also experienced the GPU issues and sleep issues, but for me, these were solved by updating to bios v3.03

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago

I think the bigger problem for the community is that the M3 absolutely spanks it in performance. https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_7_7840u-vs-apple_m3_max_16_cpu_40_gpu https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_7_7840u-... It's not just a matter of poor drivers and not being able to wake up from sleep. You typical Mac lasts for tens of hours on battery and runs faster than Intel/AMD's flagship laptop grade processors. This is a big deal and if the x64 hardware people don't up their game soon, the Linux on desktop community will be hurt as users would move to the Apple ecosystem, despite the non-free nature. The gap has grown too big.

rstuart4133 3y ago
> the Linux on desktop community will be hurt as users would move to the Apple ecosystem, despite the non-free nature. That's an odd thing to say given given GNU/Linux runs on more architectures than any other OS. For example there is a Chromebook, which is (or is slated to become?) a skin over GNU/Linux. That includes using Wayland. If you want access to the full GNU/Linux stack, Chromebook's provide Crostini. Your point about Apple pulling off a step change with the M series is correct of course, and Asahi Linux notwithstanding we don't have full access to it. But other hardware vendors see that as an opportunity - if they can produce an equivalent they can take advantage of the fact that Apple produces a premium product most of the world doesn't want to pay for. When they do, GNU/Linux users will be among the early adopters. It's difficult to see how be GNU/Linux could get left behind. AMD/Intel on the other hand are likely shitting themselves. They've now had years to catch up, but has been very little sign of it. That mountain of technical debt created by the necessity of backward compatibility is proving very hard to move. The are starting to look like dinosaurs that are pretty safe in their niche, but the world has moved on and that niche is shrinking.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
  > That's an odd thing to say given given GNU/Linux runs on more architectures than any other OS. So? Any other architecture that outperforms the M3 on both efficiency and power?

zerocrates 3y ago

Just did my own swap yesterday: I was lazy (practical?) and just kept the Intel wifi chip I had already so I wouldn't have to redo the antenna connections. I'm on Ubuntu 23.10 and I think just the pretty new kernel, plus my Framework board being a later build with the newer firmware, meant I dodged any graphics issues (at least any I'd have immediately noticed).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]