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You're literally describing how the patriarchy hurts men. > when all those arguments explain the gender pay gap Yes. Which is why you focus on the delta. The
by Spivak 3y ago
You're literally describing how the patriarchy hurts men.
> when all those arguments explain the gender pay gap
Yes. Which is why you focus on the delta. The end goal is for that to be more equal via breaking down the societal structures we've created where men are expected to take on more risk and women are pressured against from taking more dangerous work. You're a raging feminist.
The patriarchy isn't "men." Both men and women contribute to it and are responsible for it. There's "women aren't cut out for..." which is the side everyone knows but it's also "if you can't provide for your family you're a deadbeat." A society that puts almost all the power in the hands of men shoulders all the responsibility on them too and it's literally killing them.
You need to ask why men find themselves doing more dangerous work and taking on more risk? Or differently why don't women feel the need to? Because in our patriarchal society that's where the bar is for men. That's the role men have been placed into whether they want it or not. Here's a quote from The Bell Jar that distills it perfectly -- "what a man wants is is an arrow into the future and what a woman is is the place the arrow shoots off from." [1] Men are expected to be the forerunners striking it out into the unknown and women are expected to provide stability. And the idea is ingrained from birth.
[1] For context Sylvia and the protagonist Esther violently disagree with this.
- rafale 3y agoWe shouldn't focus on the delta (the outcome) but the roots. If men take more risks and die sooner, so be it. If women get jobs that pay less and earn less, so be it. However, men should be able to take less dangerous jobs. And women should be able to take higher paying jobs. (I believe this is already the case) We should just be asking ourselves: "are we not limiting people's freedom, regardless of their sex, race, religion, <insert any other arbitrary way to partition a group>" If the answer is no, then we are good to go, even if we observe a delta in the outcomes (e.g. more blacks in NBA than whites... white are allowed to participate just as much, so the outcome doesn't matter).
- Spivak 3y agoBasically yeah, you got it. Where it seems we disagree is you think we've met our obligation to not limit people's freedom once the walls are removed where I think that obligation is met once all the impediments are removed. The delta being wide and always in one direction is evidence that we missed some. It shouldn't be harder for one group or another and you shouldn't have to fight the current of societal expectations to do it.