4 ms·

> A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage […] How much was knowledge, for its own sake, valued in the world view(s) in the Ancient Mediterranean

> A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage […] How much was knowledge, for its own sake, valued in the world view(s) in the Ancient Mediterranean societies? Certainly there were philosophers in Ancient Greece, which partly came over to Ancient Rome, but how mainstream was that compared to the pagan practices and outlooks? How much was knowledge about rituals to keep Ceres happy for grains (cereals) to grow versus a more mechanistic understanding? When and why did humans (in that part of the world) start thinking about the cosmos in a more 'logical' fashion? How much was kindliness part of the world view(s) in the Ancient Mediterranean societies? Julius Caesar was celebrated for killing one million Gauls and taking a million more as slaves (exaggerated numbers, but the principle is the same). When and why did humans (at least in that part of the world) start thinking that being kind to each other would be a good thing? IMHO, Russell owes much of his worldview and values to the Christianity that he rejects. These worldviews and values were by no means universal when Christian was young, or in Russell's time, or even now.

jltsiren 3y ago
I'd argue that knowledge for its own sake was valued more in the ancient world than it is today. It was one of the ways the elites could show their superiority over the lower classes that had no time for such pursuits. In particular, the liberal arts tradition favored by Western elites over millennia can be traced back to formal education in ancient Greece and Rome. Also, your mention of religious rituals reminded me of one of my favorite comments ever: > Roman religion was purely about ritual and not at all about belief. Indeed, the Romans viewed belief as a matter of philosophy, not of religion. They would have viewed the Pledge of Allegiance as clearly religious, but the Nicene Creed as straddling the boundary, and Buddhism as clearly philosophical. https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/55197/what-is-the-difference-between-the-ancient-greek-religion-and-the-ancient-roman#comment165896_55199 https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/55197/what-is-th... That attitude is still prevalent around the world, and it explains why many people are opposed to religious freedom. If religion is more about the society than individual belief, rejecting your religion means also rejecting your friends, family, and the entire society.
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > Roman religion was purely about ritual and not at all about belief. Tom Holland had a good lecture on this—the concept of religio: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeCTC_r4vMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeCTC_r4vMI * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio#Significance_in_Roman_religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio#Significance_in_Roman_... He came across this as part of the research on his book Dominion: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Tom_Holland_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Tom_Holland_book) * Review: https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ * Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkP46aYQIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkP46aYQIs (The author Tom Holland has a 'namespace clash' with the Spider-Man actor Tom Holland—hilarity often ensues. Use search terms carefully.)

jltsiren 3y ago

I'd argue that knowledge for its own sake was valued more in the ancient world than it is today. It was one of the ways the elites could show their superiority over the lower classes that had no time for such pursuits. In particular, the liberal arts tradition favored by Western elites over millennia can be traced back to formal education in ancient Greece and Rome. Also, your mention of religious rituals reminded me of one of my favorite comments ever: > Roman religion was purely about ritual and not at all about belief. Indeed, the Romans viewed belief as a matter of philosophy, not of religion. They would have viewed the Pledge of Allegiance as clearly religious, but the Nicene Creed as straddling the boundary, and Buddhism as clearly philosophical. https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/55197/what-is-the-difference-between-the-ancient-greek-religion-and-the-ancient-roman#comment165896_55199 https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/55197/what-is-th... That attitude is still prevalent around the world, and it explains why many people are opposed to religious freedom. If religion is more about the society than individual belief, rejecting your religion means also rejecting your friends, family, and the entire society.

throw0101b 3y ago
> Roman religion was purely about ritual and not at all about belief. Tom Holland had a good lecture on this—the concept of religio: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeCTC_r4vMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeCTC_r4vMI * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio#Significance_in_Roman_religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio#Significance_in_Roman_... He came across this as part of the research on his book Dominion: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Tom_Holland_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Tom_Holland_book) * Review: https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ https://historyforatheists.com/2020/01/tom-holland-dominion/ * Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkP46aYQIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkP46aYQIs (The author Tom Holland has a 'namespace clash' with the Spider-Man actor Tom Holland—hilarity often ensues. Use search terms carefully.)