8 ms·

How would one distinguish legal traffic from illegal? If encrypted communications were to be allowed, what is stopping people using the amateur bands for commer

How would one distinguish legal traffic from illegal? If encrypted communications were to be allowed, what is stopping people using the amateur bands for commercial use? This is the main concern of hams, not that it's good that you can't have privacy.

edrxty 3y ago
You can still have an In-The-Clear ID requirement, ie frame packets as: AB0CDE--*UI93.8u[3u9,8husoa...
- Crunchified 3y ago
  Sure you can. This still does not ensure that the communications embedded within the encrypted portion of the data does not violate amateur rules. Encryption of communications effectively removes the ability of hams (and government regulators) to monitor their service for rule breakers. It would invite commercial users to exploit hams' valuable bandwidth. I would go so far as to say encryption is not needed in the amateur radio domain, outside of limiting access to the control and configuration of remote devices. The established goals of the amateur radio service can be achieved without encrypted communications.
  - lrvick 3y ago
    My goal is to be able to privately communicate with other people at a distance without relying on cell phone carriers, ISPs, or other brittle corporate infrastructure. Privacy is a human right, and that applies over radio. If I need to register my public keys like a license plate, fine, but the content is only the business of the recipient.
    - mike_d 3y ago
      Think of Ham like Usenet or posting to a forum. You are in the public square talking for all to hear. If you want something more akin to private email, that is possible you just need a difference license. https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/industrial-business/industrial-business-licensing https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-divis... I have frequency allocations (well technically a radio shop manages them for us) and use AES128 encryption with no issues.
      - lrvick 3y ago
        So by this license only businesses are allowed to have private communications, not individuals?
        mike_d 3y ago
        Hypothetically you could get a license just for yourself, but only you'd be able to use it which might get kinda lonely. Using a LLC is much more practical as the entity can own the radios and assign them to authorized users acting on behalf of the company. Forming a corporate entity and paying the frequency coordination fees are going to be minimal in comparison to the hardware costs to communicate at a distance (encrypted or clear) reliably.
        withinboredom 3y ago
        Businesses are the only legal way to “group” people together and hold them accountable. Since you are purchasing a license for some spectrum, they need a way to hold that group accountable. A common business arrangement is to create a “co-op” to work together, usually owned equally by the members. For example, there are a couple of developer co-ops around here to get discounts on IDEs and resources by appearing as a large org. Almost like what you’d expect from a union, but most clearly not a union.
        throw0101a 3y ago
        > So by this license only businesses are allowed to have private communications, not individuals? The first words on that pages are "Individuals or entities desiring to […]". You, as an individual, can get a license. It's probably just more common for legal persons [1] to go through the effort rather than natural persons [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person
        lrvick 3y ago
        That is something, I suppose, though every person I want to communicate with would need one which is a real pain. Still, will explore this. If anyone has any tips for encrypted voice comms using this path I would welcome it
    - zeckalpha 3y ago
      Have you looked into laser?
    - throw0101a 3y ago
      > Privacy is a human right, and that applies over radio. You do not have a right to use common space (e.g., radio spectrum) without regard to the rest of society. If are given permission to use a common space, you have to use it with the stated conditions.
    - btreecat 3y ago
      Isn't that why you would use a letter and post system?
deepsun 3y ago
I think because any commerce is visible (e.g. they register with Secretary of State, pay taxes etc). If it's a tiny commerce, no-one would notice. Probably. Neither ham community. But no one seriously would invest time and money in a business that's, well, illegal.
- wiml 3y ago
  > But no one seriously would invest time and money in a business that's, well, illegal. I ... what? That really doesn't jibe with my observations of the world.
  - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
    FCC don't play when they assign fines.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Which they can only do for unencrypted traffic, encrypted traffic by definition would not be examinable by the FCC for determining whether to assign fines.
      - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
        They don't have to know what you are sending to know you are sending in a way you shouldn't. It's not even about the content of the encrypted traffic at that point. They just see broadcasts (which...good luck hiding them from the FCC) and if they see the bandwidth being used but aren't receiving a usable audio/data stream from it, it's really easy to tell if the rules are being followed.
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        How would anyone determine whether 'a usable audio/data stream' exists in encrypted traffic?
apple4ever 3y ago
Why does that matter? I don't think it does.

edrxty 3y ago

You can still have an In-The-Clear ID requirement, ie frame packets as: AB0CDE--*UI93.8u[3u9,8husoa...

Crunchified 3y ago
Sure you can. This still does not ensure that the communications embedded within the encrypted portion of the data does not violate amateur rules. Encryption of communications effectively removes the ability of hams (and government regulators) to monitor their service for rule breakers. It would invite commercial users to exploit hams' valuable bandwidth. I would go so far as to say encryption is not needed in the amateur radio domain, outside of limiting access to the control and configuration of remote devices. The established goals of the amateur radio service can be achieved without encrypted communications.
- lrvick 3y ago
  My goal is to be able to privately communicate with other people at a distance without relying on cell phone carriers, ISPs, or other brittle corporate infrastructure. Privacy is a human right, and that applies over radio. If I need to register my public keys like a license plate, fine, but the content is only the business of the recipient.
  - mike_d 3y ago
    Think of Ham like Usenet or posting to a forum. You are in the public square talking for all to hear. If you want something more akin to private email, that is possible you just need a difference license. https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/industrial-business/industrial-business-licensing https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-divis... I have frequency allocations (well technically a radio shop manages them for us) and use AES128 encryption with no issues.
    - lrvick 3y ago
      So by this license only businesses are allowed to have private communications, not individuals?
      - mike_d 3y ago
        Hypothetically you could get a license just for yourself, but only you'd be able to use it which might get kinda lonely. Using a LLC is much more practical as the entity can own the radios and assign them to authorized users acting on behalf of the company. Forming a corporate entity and paying the frequency coordination fees are going to be minimal in comparison to the hardware costs to communicate at a distance (encrypted or clear) reliably.
      - withinboredom 3y ago
        Businesses are the only legal way to “group” people together and hold them accountable. Since you are purchasing a license for some spectrum, they need a way to hold that group accountable. A common business arrangement is to create a “co-op” to work together, usually owned equally by the members. For example, there are a couple of developer co-ops around here to get discounts on IDEs and resources by appearing as a large org. Almost like what you’d expect from a union, but most clearly not a union.
      - throw0101a 3y ago
        > So by this license only businesses are allowed to have private communications, not individuals? The first words on that pages are "Individuals or entities desiring to […]". You, as an individual, can get a license. It's probably just more common for legal persons [1] to go through the effort rather than natural persons [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person
        lrvick 3y ago
        That is something, I suppose, though every person I want to communicate with would need one which is a real pain. Still, will explore this. If anyone has any tips for encrypted voice comms using this path I would welcome it
  - zeckalpha 3y ago
    Have you looked into laser?
  - throw0101a 3y ago
    > Privacy is a human right, and that applies over radio. You do not have a right to use common space (e.g., radio spectrum) without regard to the rest of society. If are given permission to use a common space, you have to use it with the stated conditions.
  - btreecat 3y ago
    Isn't that why you would use a letter and post system?

deepsun 3y ago

I think because any commerce is visible (e.g. they register with Secretary of State, pay taxes etc). If it's a tiny commerce, no-one would notice. Probably. Neither ham community. But no one seriously would invest time and money in a business that's, well, illegal.

wiml 3y ago
> But no one seriously would invest time and money in a business that's, well, illegal. I ... what? That really doesn't jibe with my observations of the world.
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  FCC don't play when they assign fines.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Which they can only do for unencrypted traffic, encrypted traffic by definition would not be examinable by the FCC for determining whether to assign fines.
    - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
      They don't have to know what you are sending to know you are sending in a way you shouldn't. It's not even about the content of the encrypted traffic at that point. They just see broadcasts (which...good luck hiding them from the FCC) and if they see the bandwidth being used but aren't receiving a usable audio/data stream from it, it's really easy to tell if the rules are being followed.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        How would anyone determine whether 'a usable audio/data stream' exists in encrypted traffic?

apple4ever 3y ago

Why does that matter? I don't think it does.