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In that case you've successfully invalidated the parent poster's claim that posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners. Either way shows the paren

In that case you've successfully invalidated the parent poster's claim that posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners. Either way shows the parent post to be a baseless ad-hominem.

fpgeek 15y ago
The parent post didn't say "posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners". Instead, it said there was a "correlation" between people who own iPhones and people who "focus" their "rants" on Google "to the exclusion of other players". It also wasn't talking about the tendency you reference upthread (people who use things from company X tend not to criticize company X). Let me try to make the claim clearer: People who use Apple products (specifically iPhones) disproportionately criticize Google (since Android). You may agree or disagree with that claim, but, in my opinion, it is a claim that should be evaluated on its own merits rather than summarily dismissed (as you do).
- rbarooah 15y ago
  I nowhere summarily dismiss it. I say that the correlation is not exclusive to Apple owners and is just a reflection of their opinions. What I dismiss is the claim that this pattern is somehow unique to Apple users commenting on Google vs say Android users commenting on Apple. That's what makes it an ad-hominem. Do you actually support this claim?
  - ajross 15y ago
    Slow down. You're strawmaning really badly here. Neither did I say that the correlation was "exclusive" to Apple owners. I said (read carefully this time) that the perception that Google has been doing things worthy of heavy criticism ("turned evil", etc...) is unique to the community of technical Apple users (and that this community heavily overlaps the one here). Outside that echo chamber, even in highly technical communities, it doesn't exist. So I argue that it's a social artifact, not a reflection of Google's behavior.
    - rbarooah 15y ago
      Thanks for clarifying. I have recently had the experiences of meeting more than one person (not super-technical engineers, but tech-literate IT people) who were very negative about even the idea of owning Apple products, but also without prompting made statements like "I hate what Google is becoming", and "everyone used to like them but now they're evil". So I can assure you the sentiments aren't limited to such a small community. Even if this were not so, complex criticisms of a technology business would reasonably be expected to originate within a skilled technical community with a demonstrated preference for an alternative. So if these critiques did happen to be limited to this community, this would still be no reason to conclude that they do not reflect Google's behavior. Your statements like: And the reason is clear: since 2008 Android has represented the biggest single threat to Apple's increasing dominance. are clearly an ad-hominem because you are implying that their criticisms stem from loyalty to Apple as a company, as opposed to them actually reasoning that Google's products and strategies have become counter to their specific values. I'd say it's just as reasonable to suggest that Android amongst other things has caused Google itself to change its values, and it is this change of values that people are calling out. Saying things like "none of this speaks to the legitimacy of.." and "Some of it is deserved.." does nothing to mitigate the ad-hominem. If the criticism is legitimate, or the statements are deserved, then it doesn't matter what phone someone has in their pocket.
      - ajross 15y ago
        You need to check your netiquette documentation, because that's not what ad hominem means. I'm not arguing with Apple users and trying to tarnish their reputations via unrelated attacks. I'm making the specific point that their loyalty drives their opinions (frankly I don't even see why you even think this is controversial -- it happens everywhere, in every subject). And that because of their (your) preponderance in this community (again a very uncontroversial fact), it seems like (this is my conclusion drawn from above) more people are souring on Google than is really true. QED. Now, maybe you disagree with some of those facts. But none of that argument is based on attacking anything unrelated about you guys. (edit: I shouldn't have bitten. Go away, troll.)

In that case you've successfully invalidated the parent poster's claim that posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners. Either way shows the parent post to be a baseless ad-hominem.

fpgeek 15y ago

The parent post didn't say "posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners". Instead, it said there was a "correlation" between people who own iPhones and people who "focus" their "rants" on Google "to the exclusion of other players". It also wasn't talking about the tendency you reference upthread (people who use things from company X tend not to criticize company X). Let me try to make the claim clearer: People who use Apple products (specifically iPhones) disproportionately criticize Google (since Android). You may agree or disagree with that claim, but, in my opinion, it is a claim that should be evaluated on its own merits rather than summarily dismissed (as you do).

rbarooah 15y ago
I nowhere summarily dismiss it. I say that the correlation is not exclusive to Apple owners and is just a reflection of their opinions. What I dismiss is the claim that this pattern is somehow unique to Apple users commenting on Google vs say Android users commenting on Apple. That's what makes it an ad-hominem. Do you actually support this claim?
- ajross 15y ago
  Slow down. You're strawmaning really badly here. Neither did I say that the correlation was "exclusive" to Apple owners. I said (read carefully this time) that the perception that Google has been doing things worthy of heavy criticism ("turned evil", etc...) is unique to the community of technical Apple users (and that this community heavily overlaps the one here). Outside that echo chamber, even in highly technical communities, it doesn't exist. So I argue that it's a social artifact, not a reflection of Google's behavior.
  - rbarooah 15y ago
    Thanks for clarifying. I have recently had the experiences of meeting more than one person (not super-technical engineers, but tech-literate IT people) who were very negative about even the idea of owning Apple products, but also without prompting made statements like "I hate what Google is becoming", and "everyone used to like them but now they're evil". So I can assure you the sentiments aren't limited to such a small community. Even if this were not so, complex criticisms of a technology business would reasonably be expected to originate within a skilled technical community with a demonstrated preference for an alternative. So if these critiques did happen to be limited to this community, this would still be no reason to conclude that they do not reflect Google's behavior. Your statements like: And the reason is clear: since 2008 Android has represented the biggest single threat to Apple's increasing dominance. are clearly an ad-hominem because you are implying that their criticisms stem from loyalty to Apple as a company, as opposed to them actually reasoning that Google's products and strategies have become counter to their specific values. I'd say it's just as reasonable to suggest that Android amongst other things has caused Google itself to change its values, and it is this change of values that people are calling out. Saying things like "none of this speaks to the legitimacy of.." and "Some of it is deserved.." does nothing to mitigate the ad-hominem. If the criticism is legitimate, or the statements are deserved, then it doesn't matter what phone someone has in their pocket.
    - ajross 15y ago
      You need to check your netiquette documentation, because that's not what ad hominem means. I'm not arguing with Apple users and trying to tarnish their reputations via unrelated attacks. I'm making the specific point that their loyalty drives their opinions (frankly I don't even see why you even think this is controversial -- it happens everywhere, in every subject). And that because of their (your) preponderance in this community (again a very uncontroversial fact), it seems like (this is my conclusion drawn from above) more people are souring on Google than is really true. QED. Now, maybe you disagree with some of those facts. But none of that argument is based on attacking anything unrelated about you guys. (edit: I shouldn't have bitten. Go away, troll.)